Electric Cars

ZN8 said:
I share your sentiment but for me it's a tough one to swallow. I have little confidence in my fellow man. My career has been in heavy industry, in particular power, where the pressure to change is nowhere near at the same level or pace as it is in the automotive industry. The conversations being had today aren’t far off what they were 15 years ago. Whilst it may appear we are all going greener, as we see renewable power increasing, and some fossil fuel plants closing, in some ways it’s the opposite. We have now also reached the second ‘dash for gas’ event, gas turbine manufacturers order books are full, globally there are dozens of gas power plants being built, what for? Predominantly to power data centres.

We burn billions of cubic feet of gas just to power these data centres which produce megawatts of heat as a byproduct, yet here I am being told to save the plant by driving an electric car.

Hydrocarbons being burnt for transportation can be deemed as a waste, but so are most things us humans consume, take Helium, it’s a finite resource, which is critical in medical and scientific equipment, it has enough escape velocity to leave the atmosphere, when its gone its gone, yet we put it in party balloons without a single thought.

Anyway I digress, that was pretty morbid. Back onto EVs... 😅
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My dad is a gas man. Which is actually low intensity carbon wise, much lower than coal and about as good fossil get. He was part of the pioneers of CHP, harvesting the heat to warm water for district heating. 100% efficient. He's now on the electric wagon but it took a lot of discussion, engineers love their babies...

Lots of datacenters in the North here because of cheap renewable electricity, waste heat used to heat housing where possible and no massive cooling needed because of the climate.
So not all bad.

Still, helium balloons going up to nothing, and crypto wasting large amounts of energy to much to the same effect, amongst many other things, yes humanity needs saving from itself 🥴

In the end, it's very simple philosophy. One either believes what one does matters, or one doesn't. Times 8 billion, that's the catch...

Enjoying GR's and supporting others to do so while also supporting a systematic change makes entirely sense to me. It's up to us to make sure manufacturers will make electric cars that we can continue to enjoy, and I'm pretty sure that will come.
 
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Sekred said:
As far as going Green the whole EV is boarding on a complete scam.
The dirty Nickel mining in Indonesia by Chinese companies is being exposed.
It's really mind boggling what a complete transition would cost in the long run. I shudder thinking about it.
The toxic process to make these batteries is shocking. Green, give me a break.

How China’s investment in Indonesia's nickel industry is impacting local communities

Unchecked nickel mining in Sulawesi, Indonesia, is harming local communities. What are the Indonesian government and the Chinese companies investing in the mines doing to mitigate the environmental consequences?
globalvoices.org globalvoices.org
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So had some more time to look into this.

This is about laterite ore, which is NOT suitable for use in EV batteries. The 'dirty' in the term 'dirty nickel' is actually a technical term for lower class nickel that isn't pure enough for use in EV batteries that requires Class 1 quality that predominately come from sulfide ores.

It is possible to purify laterite nickel (limonite) through a process called HPAL, and that's indeed a dirty (sulpheric acid) and costly process (heat needed) which is as far as I can tell not used commercially in Indonesia yet.

So while the article points with their whole arm to EVs, the nickel quality from indonesian mines are actually predominantly used in stainless steel. So I hope you can redirect your disgust to the pots and pans and other stainless steel products you use. Not as easy as hating on EV's, perhaps.

There is still valid concern that EV growth will increase nickel mining and will fund the dirty HPAL processing. Luckily roughly half of today's currently used EV chemistry, LFP, does not use Nickel nor Cobolt and these chemistries without rare metals are further on the rise, non the least because they are cheaper. So it's very likely that much of the remaining 96% of non-EV cars that have potential to be replaced, will be replaced with batteries that do not require these problematical minerals mining.

Also remember. While the amount of mining needed to transition to EVs almost completely will be significant and exploitation should be monitored, the continued use of oil will lead to dirty mining (tar sands) and dirty drilling that should be far, far, far more concerning in both consequence and scale if your concern for the wellbeing of others and environment is *genuine*. And I'm going to call it, most of the concerns are not genuine at all - this is the world we live in. Happy to point fingers, less so to admit any own wrongdoing....

Because if concerns were real , the only logical thing to do is to propagate for more walking, cycling (most efficient) and public transportation. Which I do. Because motoring is my hobby, transport system failure sitting in endless traffic jams is not.

Enjoy your GR's, I mean that genuinely because otherwise there is no point in having them and could as well buy an EV or even better walk 😉. Most people don't actually derive axtual joy from burning hydrocarbons, on their commute, they want comfort, quietness and listen to music, so system change makes sense.

And if you do enjoy it, good for you, I definitely did so myself too! Just don't pretend you're saving the world in the process by refusing EVs 😂 😘
 
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Onehp said:
So had some more time to look into this.

This is about laterite ore, which is NOT suitable for use in EV batteries. The 'dirty' in the term 'dirty nickel' is actually a technical term for lower class nickel that isn't pure enough for use in EV batteries that requires Class 1 quality that predominately come from sulfide ores.

It is possible to purify laterite nickel (limonite) through a process called HPAL, and that's indeed a dirty (sulpheric acid) and costly process (heat needed) which is as far as I can tell not used commercially in Indonesia yet.

So while the article points with their whole arm to EVs, the nickel quality from indonesian mines are actually predominantly used in stainless steel. So I hope you can redirect your disgust to the pots and pans and other stainless steel products you use. Not as easy as hating on EV's, perhaps.

There is still valid concern that EV growth will increase nickel mining and will fund the dirty HPAL processing. Luckily roughly half of today's currently used EV chemistry, LFP, does not use Nickel nor Cobolt and these chemistries without rare metals are further on the rise, non the least because they are cheaper. So it's very likely that much of the remaining 96% of non-EV cars that have potential to be replaced, will be replaced with batteries that do not require these problematical minerals mining.

Also remember. While the amount of mining needed to transition to EVs almost completely will be significant and exploitation should be monitored, the continued use of oil will lead to dirty mining (tar sands) and dirty drilling that should be far, far, far more concerning in both consequence and scale if your concern for the wellbeing of others and environment is *genuine*. And I'm going to call it, most of the concerns are not genuine at all - this is the world we live in. Happy to point fingers, less so to admit any own wrongdoing....

Because if concerns were real , the only logical thing to do is to propagate for more walking, cycling (most efficient) and public transportation. Which I do. Because motoring is my hobby, transport system failure sitting in endless traffic jams is not.

Enjoy your GR's, I mean that genuinely because otherwise there is no point in having them and could as well buy an EV or even better walk 😉. Most people don't actually derive axtual joy from burning hydrocarbons, on their commute, they want comfort, quietness and listen to music, so system change makes sense.

And if you do enjoy it, good for you, I definitely did so myself too! Just don't pretend you're saving the world in the process by refusing EVs 😂 😘
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LOL.

I am going straight down to my local kitchen ware retailer and chuck a tantrum.

Good on you for doing some research which is probably more accurate than what the media dishes up on a regular basis.

I don't hate EVs they have their place but it is not saving the planet. If their charged by clean electricity that's great.

One of my concerns is the minerals use are finite like oil and gas. What happens when we run-out? When does an EV become Green? How much dirty energy does it take to built a typical EV right from when the minerals are mined out of the ground till it rolls out the factory door? 60,000kms, 100,000kms?
Anywhere where there's money is to be made the truth is lost. I really don't know who to believe any longer.
These dirty mining companies have no morals and are unregulated. Its a free for all where people are expendably and so is the environment.
 
EU is coming with an EV battery directive.

Gasoline and diesel cars didn't become tailpipe clean because manufacturers did it on their own initiative. It is because we the people demanded it, despite people happily removing OFP/GPF ;) , and the EU1/2/3/4/5/6 has become a global succces story, making air in cities breathable and smog more or less under control as governments around the world implemented the European emission control regulation. Some to a lower level, but still.

The battery directive will regulate everything from mining, service and repair, documentation and OBD data, to reuse and recycling. Just like emisison regulation it will be implemented stepwise as the industry matures. Major technology shifts like this takes time. I hope it becomes successful.

If you want to know @Sekred you'll have to do some own digging and verification. This really applies to many areas of life nowadays, by yourself look up the best arguments and data for both opposing sides and put them next too each other. The amount of wrong information that goes around is quite amazing, either based on ignorance or willful deception, both are worrying because quite some of the ignorance is in part willfull laziness with the truth - if it sounds good I'll believe it....

What is the full scale impact of electric cars, and what is the full scale impact of gasoline cars.


My take. Already 30 years ago I knew cars as a system weren't sustainable at system level, I've deeply enjoyed driving and I've done my part in trying to clean up the act so we can continue enjoying driving. Also oil is finite and its a shame to burn it in effectively in places where it gives no joy and could be done otherwise. EV will win because of efficiency and renewable electricity win due to cost, burning gasoline or similar synthetics can continue for those that really value it. Also as a system, a supercar or rally car that do at most a few thousand miles a year, are more effective as combusion engine vehicle and do give more joy, both for drivers and observers.

Like a live concert always beats sitting at home listening to a recording. But the former is naturally limited, and latter is still great fun the rest of the time. And I daily greatly enjoy the real interaction with recorded sounds in my first of a kind Hyundai Ioniq 5 N...
 
Opinion piece.

Why the Ioniq 5 N being EV probably makes it the best performance car, ever (so far).

1000064633.webp


Just read an article about the hp race getting rediculous ref the new 2200hp Nevera R record and the upcoming 2300hp Gemera. Antidote suggested was lighter more involving supercars or more Le Mans cars for the road. Sure that works, but haven't we done that already? Who is actually out in these cars, regularly?

Here is my take from what the 5 N taught me.

"My latest car has taught me about the importance of accessible performance, and why I am deeply enjoying it as a driver enthusiast family father:

1) Very fast, effortless and comfortable family car and involving b-road blaster in one car, just seperated one press of a button. Never again am I out in new territory to find an amazing road and the fun car parked far away at home, now I can just go out and literally and figuratively have a blast, anytime. And when the kids sleep, I can still cover ground very quickly without disturbing anyone, too. Performance is there all the time, in very different but very suitable forms.

2) Instant accesibility of performance, never again missing a driver thrill because one just set off and the engine and gearbox haven't warmed yet. With daily trips being relatively short (less then half an hour), that's a lot of added fun on a year basis.

3) Very low marginal cost of using performance. Setting off at home with a full 'tank' of solar or cheap overnight electricity, there is never a second thought about fuel cost when flooring it at suitable opportunities. Oh and fast chargers are plentiful and cheap here so no fuss there either, the cost delta between normal and grin inducing speeds is very low still. So accessible. And it's not like the car itself is very expensive for the offered performance either.

None of these points together were possible with old school performance cars of *ANY* catalogue price. Nor any other car for sale today.

Suffice to say I totally love my Ioniq 5 N, performance has never been this accessible and usable.

The accessibility maybe makes is less special for people with a lot of time on their hands, but for drivers that have a lot in life otherwise, time is probably more limited than money, it's such a relief and so refreshening when getting into the car."

Picture burrowed from topgear.com

PS: the announced but not yet available 6 N moves the game on again with further development of this performance concept, but at a slightly different crossroads of less practicality and sharper performance.

PPS: BMW M, Mercedes AMG and Audi RS have all announced to persue a similar concept for their upcoming EV performance cars. Predictably the fan base wasn't impressed but opinions can change with experiencing something like above...
 
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Onehp said:
Degradation: stanford found that intermittent discharging (i.e. flooring it) and average discharge rate of C/2 is beneficial for longevity, exactly the 5 N use case.

Resale: maybe a GR is a bit excepted, but once EV are unavoidable the better choice cost wise and infrastructure is up to par and people have adapted, and 2nd had ev getting cheaper again, remotely mainstream gasoline will fall out completely methinks, as attrative as a nokia 3310, a typewriter or camera using film or even a canon digital pocket camera of 10 years old. But that's longer term, if short term, yeah it's like it is. But contrary to rumour, UK EV sales are 35% up year on year. The 5 N is staying in the family is our plan. I enjoy the car, my passion cars tend to hold value quite ok is an added bonus, but even if it depreciates 100% it will still be worth it vs the cost of similar performance cars that lose just as much money if they depreciate 50% and cost a whole lot more to run....

Rare earth. Currently less then 3% of all cars are BEV in the world. Soon LFP will be the dominant chemistry without rare earth and in the end if all cars become BEV, like 85-90% BEV will probably not contain rare earth materials. Oh, and media does love clickbaiting people to make them thinking it's a lot worse than it is, incl completely hoax Nickel documentaries 🙄
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Day to day, do you know where your electricity comes from to charge your EV?
 
speeddemon666 said:
Day to day, do you know where your electricity comes from to charge your EV?
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Yes, during summer from my solar panels, during winter from windpower and hydro. Regulated through electricity certificates - I'm in Sweden where electricity is 98% fossil free anyway and produced within the country.

Just read that 2/3rd of gasoline in Sweden has an "unknown"origin, uh oohh...
 
Onehp said:
Yes, during summer from my solar panels, during winter from windpower and hydro. Regulated through electricity certificates - I'm in Sweden where electricity is 98% fossil free anyway and produced within the country.

Just read that 2/3rd of gasoline in Sweden has an "unknown"origin, uh oohh...
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That's fine, if I lived in Sweden the decision to switch might be made a little easier.
As it stands in the UK now 60% of our electricty is produced by burning gas.
 
speeddemon666 said:
That's fine, if I lived in Sweden the decision to switch might be made a little easier.
As it stands in the UK now 60% of our electricty is produced by burning gas.
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Gas is like 15-20% less carbon, the efficiency and carbon emission to the wheel in a BEV is still like 3x better than burning gasoline straight into an engine, as burning gas in an industrial turbine is near 100% efficient if the exhaust heat is recuperated for heating stuff (CHP, combined heat and power). Assuming the electricty mix is an average 60% gas and the rest renewable, we're looking at 5x carbon reduction still... Over the car lifetime maybe 3-4x given some more carbon is used to produce the battery.
 
speeddemon666 said:
To me, all the while I read articles like this, and others about the degradation of battery life, I won't by swayed by the EV market.
https://hir.harvard.edu/not-so-green-technology-the-complicated-legacy-of-rare-earth-mining/
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What degradation are you on about? It's not like petrol engines last forever, and that a day V8 biturbo with ZF 8 speed isn't particularly cheap to replace either...

news.stanford.edu

Existing EV batteries may last up to 40% longer than expected

Consumers’ real-world stop-and-go driving of electric vehicles benefits batteries more than the steady use simulated in almost all laboratory tests of new battery designs, Stanford-SLAC study finds.
news.stanford.edu news.stanford.edu

For discharging the battery at a rate of 2hours per charge, the longevity is a lot better. Which is the 5 N in enthusiast use. Ond avoid overheating the battery

REE are difficult, but as I stated basically all EV makers are going to skip rare earth in batteries quite soon, this is a very recently announced thing. Permanent magnet motors don't need to be used either, at least less sporting morels

If your concern is true, maybe should walk or take a bicycle everywhere... Because gasoline isn't exactly without issue either....
 
speeddemon666 said:
That's fine, if I lived in Sweden the decision to switch might be made a little easier.
As it stands in the UK now 60% of our electricty is produced by burning gas.
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More like 30%, and dropping every year. This is the last year, according to the National Grid

1752735961762.webp


In a world where many things seem so unrelentlingly shit, the speed of transition away from fossil fuels in the UK is nothing short of remarkable and it's crazy it's not being celebrated.
 
Duke said:
More like 30%, and dropping every year. This is the last year, according to the National Grid

View attachment 36815

In a world where many things seem so unrelentlingly shit, the speed of transition away from fossil fuels in the UK is nothing short of remarkable and it's crazy it's not being celebrated.
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Because it's an unreliable network of renewable electricty generation!
I will lay my cards on table here and say that I believe that the drive to EV's is nothing but the furthering of the consumption and manufacturing of goods we don't really need. What's more it's been driven by this message that says that it will save the planet.
Domestic renewable electricity generation generally is something to be happy about, but it is far from reliable, especially when you consider the impact of EV charging overnight when largely renewable generation is at it's lowest.
Quite simply, we need to start making less, not making more, that in turn will bring with it huge benefits. We need to stop consuming goods at the rate we do.
Just stop and think about how tied in you are to damaging the planet, in the commercials you might see on TV espousing the purchase of this, that and the other - the latest phones, televisions and whole manner of electrical goods, clothes, holidays, food and indeed cars (EV or otherwise) etc, etc, that you never get told about being damaging just so you can keep the wheels of money generation turning.
 
speeddemon666 said:
Because it's an unreliable network of renewable electricty generation!
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Unreliable? You experience a lot of brownouts and blackouts? In the UK? More than you did, say, 20 years ago?

If people like National Grid are unconcerned, then I think we can all can sleep safely at night and not worry too much about the energy transisition. It's happening anyway.

And I would say that if any of us here were truly concerned about over-consumption and damaging the planet then we probably wouldn't have bought such a frivolous and relatively polluting little toy for transport :)

As it is though, for many reasons (emissions, cost, energy security, hedge against geopolitical exposure) we might as well move towards a cleaner, more reliable grid.
 
My point was to say that if you were looking to signal your virtue by owning an EV and charging it through the night from the grid at home you would find that it isn't such a clean grid after all.
At 10pm last night night production in the UK came 80% from carbon producing generation.
 
And at other times it's basically the opposite, or even 100% renewable. What's that prove? Look at the figure posted easier from NG, over the year it's less than 30%, that's the only relevant point.

Nobody is "virtue signalling" anything by refuelling their car, regardless of what 'fuel' is used.

This is all o/t though, this thread is about the brilliant 5N :D
 
Duke said:
And at other times it's basically the opposite, or even 100% renewable. What's that prove? Look at the figure posted easier from NG, over the year it's less than 30%, that's the only relevant point.
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For that point to have relevance you would be suggesting you charge your EV over the course of 12 months without driving it, surely?
 
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