Electric Cars

[Onehp]

I share your sentiment but for me it's a tough one to swallow. I have little confidence in my fellow man. My career has been in heavy industry, in particular power, where the pressure to change is nowhere near at the same level or pace as it is in the automotive industry. The conversations being had today aren’t far off what they were 15 years ago. Whilst it may appear we are all going greener, as we see renewable power increasing, and some fossil fuel plants closing, in some ways it’s the opposite. We have now also reached the second ‘dash for gas’ event, gas turbine manufacturers order books are full, globally there are dozens of gas power plants being built, what for? Predominantly to power data centres.

We burn billions of cubic feet of gas just to power these data centres which produce megawatts of heat as a byproduct, yet here I am being told to save the plant by driving an electric car.

Hydrocarbons being burnt for transportation can be deemed as a waste, but so are most things us humans consume, take Helium, it’s a finite resource, which is critical in medical and scientific equipment, it has enough escape velocity to leave the atmosphere, when its gone its gone, yet we put it in party balloons without a single thought.

Anyway I digress, that was pretty morbid. Back onto EVs...

My dad is a gas man. Which is actually low intensity carbon wise, much lower than coal and about as good fossil get. He was part of the pioneers of CHP, harvesting the heat to warm water for district heating. 100% efficient. He's now on the electric wagon but it took a lot of discussion, engineers love their babies...

Lots of datacenters in the North here because of cheap renewable electricity, waste heat used to heat housing where possible and no massive cooling needed because of the climate.
So not all bad.

Still, helium balloons going up to nothing, and crypto wasting large amounts of energy to much to the same effect, amongst many other things, yes humanity needs saving from itself

In the end, it's very simple philosophy. One either believes what one does matters, or one doesn't. Times 8 billion, that's the catch...

Enjoying GR's and supporting others to do so while also supporting a systematic change makes entirely sense to me. It's up to us to make sure manufacturers will make electric cars that we can continue to enjoy, and I'm pretty sure that will come.

 

[Onehp]

As far as going Green the whole EV is boarding on a complete scam.
The dirty Nickel mining in Indonesia by Chinese companies is being exposed.
It's really mind boggling what a complete transition would cost in the long run. I shudder thinking about it.
The toxic process to make these batteries is shocking. Green, give me a break.

How China’s investment in Indonesia's nickel industry is impacting local communities

Unchecked nickel mining in Sulawesi, Indonesia, is harming local communities. What are the Indonesian government and the Chinese companies investing in the mines doing to mitigate the environmental consequences?

globalvoices.org

So had some more time to look into this.

This is about laterite ore, which is NOT suitable for use in EV batteries. The 'dirty' in the term 'dirty nickel' is actually a technical term for lower class nickel that isn't pure enough for use in EV batteries that requires Class 1 quality that predominately come from sulfide ores.

It is possible to purify laterite nickel (limonite) through a process called HPAL, and that's indeed a dirty (sulpheric acid) and costly process (heat needed) which is as far as I can tell not used commercially in Indonesia yet.

So while the article points with their whole arm to EVs, the nickel quality from indonesian mines are actually predominantly used in stainless steel. So I hope you can redirect your disgust to the pots and pans and other stainless steel products you use. Not as easy as hating on EV's, perhaps.

There is still valid concern that EV growth will increase nickel mining and will fund the dirty HPAL processing. Luckily roughly half of today's currently used EV chemistry, LFP, does not use Nickel nor Cobolt and these chemistries without rare metals are further on the rise, non the least because they are cheaper. So it's very likely that much of the remaining 96% of non-EV cars that have potential to be replaced, will be replaced with batteries that do not require these problematical minerals mining.

Also remember. While the amount of mining needed to transition to EVs almost completely will be significant and exploitation should be monitored, the continued use of oil will lead to dirty mining (tar sands) and dirty drilling that should be far, far, far more concerning in both consequence and scale if your concern for the wellbeing of others and environment is *genuine*. And I'm going to call it, most of the concerns are not genuine at all - this is the world we live in. Happy to point fingers, less so to admit any own wrongdoing....

Because if concerns were real , the only logical thing to do is to propagate for more walking, cycling (most efficient) and public transportation. Which I do. Because motoring is my hobby, transport system failure sitting in endless traffic jams is not.

Enjoy your GR's, I mean that genuinely because otherwise there is no point in having them and could as well buy an EV or even better walk . Most people don't actually derive axtual joy from burning hydrocarbons, on their commute, they want comfort, quietness and listen to music, so system change makes sense.

And if you do enjoy it, good for you, I definitely did so myself too! Just don't pretend you're saving the world in the process by refusing EVs

 

[Sekred]

So had some more time to look into this.

This is about laterite ore, which is NOT suitable for use in EV batteries. The 'dirty' in the term 'dirty nickel' is actually a technical term for lower class nickel that isn't pure enough for use in EV batteries that requires Class 1 quality that predominately come from sulfide ores.

It is possible to purify laterite nickel (limonite) through a process called HPAL, and that's indeed a dirty (sulpheric acid) and costly process (heat needed) which is as far as I can tell not used commercially in Indonesia yet.

So while the article points with their whole arm to EVs, the nickel quality from indonesian mines are actually predominantly used in stainless steel. So I hope you can redirect your disgust to the pots and pans and other stainless steel products you use. Not as easy as hating on EV's, perhaps.

There is still valid concern that EV growth will increase nickel mining and will fund the dirty HPAL processing. Luckily roughly half of today's currently used EV chemistry, LFP, does not use Nickel nor Cobolt and these chemistries without rare metals are further on the rise, non the least because they are cheaper. So it's very likely that much of the remaining 96% of non-EV cars that have potential to be replaced, will be replaced with batteries that do not require these problematical minerals mining.

Also remember. While the amount of mining needed to transition to EVs almost completely will be significant and exploitation should be monitored, the continued use of oil will lead to dirty mining (tar sands) and dirty drilling that should be far, far, far more concerning in both consequence and scale if your concern for the wellbeing of others and environment is *genuine*. And I'm going to call it, most of the concerns are not genuine at all - this is the world we live in. Happy to point fingers, less so to admit any own wrongdoing....

Because if concerns were real , the only logical thing to do is to propagate for more walking, cycling (most efficient) and public transportation. Which I do. Because motoring is my hobby, transport system failure sitting in endless traffic jams is not.

Enjoy your GR's, I mean that genuinely because otherwise there is no point in having them and could as well buy an EV or even better walk . Most people don't actually derive axtual joy from burning hydrocarbons, on their commute, they want comfort, quietness and listen to music, so system change makes sense.

And if you do enjoy it, good for you, I definitely did so myself too! Just don't pretend you're saving the world in the process by refusing EVs

LOL.

I am going straight down to my local kitchen ware retailer and chuck a tantrum.

Good on you for doing some research which is probably more accurate than what the media dishes up on a regular basis.

I don't hate EVs they have their place but it is not saving the planet. If their charged by clean electricity that's great.

One of my concerns is the minerals use are finite like oil and gas. What happens when we run-out? When does an EV become Green? How much dirty energy does it take to built a typical EV right from when the minerals are mined out of the ground till it rolls out the factory door? 60,000kms, 100,000kms?
Anywhere where there's money is to be made the truth is lost. I really don't know who to believe any longer.
These dirty mining companies have no morals and are unregulated. Its a free for all where people are expendably and so is the environment.

 

[Onehp]

EU is coming with an EV battery directive.

Gasoline and diesel cars didn't become tailpipe clean because manufacturers did it on their own initiative. It is because we the people demanded it, despite people happily removing OFP/GPF , and the EU1/2/3/4/5/6 has become a global succces story, making air in cities breathable and smog more or less under control as governments around the world implemented the European emission control regulation. Some to a lower level, but still.

The battery directive will regulate everything from mining, service and repair, documentation and OBD data, to reuse and recycling. Just like emisison regulation it will be implemented stepwise as the industry matures. Major technology shifts like this takes time. I hope it becomes successful.

If you want to know @Sekred you'll have to do some own digging and verification. This really applies to many areas of life nowadays, by yourself look up the best arguments and data for both opposing sides and put them next too each other. The amount of wrong information that goes around is quite amazing, either based on ignorance or willful deception, both are worrying because quite some of the ignorance is in part willfull laziness with the truth - if it sounds good I'll believe it....

What is the full scale impact of electric cars, and what is the full scale impact of gasoline cars.


My take. Already 30 years ago I knew cars as a system weren't sustainable at system level, I've deeply enjoyed driving and I've done my part in trying to clean up the act so we can continue enjoying driving. Also oil is finite and its a shame to burn it in effectively in places where it gives no joy and could be done otherwise. EV will win because of efficiency and renewable electricity win due to cost, burning gasoline or similar synthetics can continue for those that really value it. Also as a system, a supercar or rally car that do at most a few thousand miles a year, are more effective as combusion engine vehicle and do give more joy, both for drivers and observers.

Like a live concert always beats sitting at home listening to a recording. But the former is naturally limited, and latter is still great fun the rest of the time. And I daily greatly enjoy the real interaction with recorded sounds in my first of a kind Hyundai Ioniq 5 N...