Electric Cars

[foxspeed]

not on about eco credentials if they are or are not good for the environment...

i just dont seem excited about any of them even with zillion hp and 0-3000mph in 1 sec

latest ferrari release or aston martin with a v12 etc now thats a different matter or even a hybrid v6

must be a dinosaur

 

[Bronson]

You're not a dinosaur, they have some serious flaws. I've been driving electric and Plug in Hybrids for 8yrs - I don't hate them, I just hate the infrastructure. They're a bit boring to drive, but until public charging is made significantly easier the stress of doing any sort of distance or planning a day of multiple stops in some circumstances is just too great.

 

[Coastliner]

Not for me, they are not what they are claimed to be. Seen some forum members who have them speak about the free charging at their workplace, good luck with that when 50 or so are plugged in for 8 hrs at 9KW's companies just won't continue giving free access.

 

[Bronson]

Tesla have already canned the referral scheme. Got a few thousand 'free' miles to use up before they expire at the end of March. Handy when the nearest Supercharger is 15 miles away the end of the Premium connectivity last year got my goat up too, another £10 a month to keep your sat nav working - cheers Elon

 

[BlueIn2Red]

Sat nav works fine without paying the subscription.

 

[Bronson]

Sat nav works fine without paying the subscription.

You lose the satellite view and traffic info if you don't pay for subscription

 

[BlueIn2Red]

Correct. Hence the sat nav does still work. Pedantic maybe, but still important to correct for those that don’t know.

 

[AndyRC]

You're not a dinosaur, they have some serious flaws. I've been driving electric and Plug in Hybrids for 8yrs - I don't hate them, I just hate the infrastructure. They're a bit boring to drive, but until public charging is made significantly easier the stress of doing any sort of distance or planning a day of multiple stops in some circumstances is just too great.

Infrastructure will catch up , not as quickly as some folk want. The CEO works in the electrical equipment supply industry and she spends a lot of time following trends and new products. There are a lot of companies brining out charging equipment, on and off street, companies are installing them, it’s happening, Shell , BP are moving into renewables and will ultimately move to recharging. BEV currently works for some , not all , I wonder what the situation will be in 10 years

 

[Coastliner]

Infrastructure will catch up , not as quickly as some folk want. The CEO works in the electrical equipment supply industry and she spends a lot of time following trends and new products. There are a lot of companies brining out charging equipment, on and off street, companies are installing them, it’s happening, Shell , BP are moving into renewables and will ultimately move to recharging. BEV currently works for some , not all , I wonder what the situation will be in 10 years

To have a crystal ball and see into the future would be very useful at this time. If 10years ago If anyone would have said we would all have major restrictions on daily life for two years They would have been taken away with the men in white coats.

 

[AndyRC]

not on about eco credentials if they are or are not good for the environment...

i just dont seem excited about any of them even with zillion hp and 0-3000mph in 1 sec

latest ferrari release or aston martin with a v12 etc now thats a different matter or even a hybrid v6

must be a dinosaur

Has this got anything stirring It did for me

 

[Onehp]

It's not the same but I enjoy buzzing around in our family rwd id4. It's supposedly slow but I still prefer the driving to any Volvo (also dime in a dozen here, they are still very good too, have a soft spot for a base V60 as they aren't leaden).

Low cg, long travel suspension but flattish cornering, uncorrupted steering, wiggle tail out of tight bends (before esp steps in elegantly) and still pretty zippy with instant torque, it responds to driver input. Friends coming along say stuff like 'I didn't know one can drive one like that' and 'you're the only one I've ever seen giving it some'. I haven't seen anyone else either lol.

Main issue is there are no real BEV 'hot hatch' or even better 'rally homologation' type drivers car BEVs developed yet so no replacing the Yaris anywhere soon...

 

[AndyRC]

To have a crystal ball and see into the future would be very useful at this time. If 10years ago I anyone would have said we would all have major restriction on daily life for two years They would have been taken away with the men in white coats.

Actually not that far fetched if you watched Planet of the Apes, a virus spread rapidly due to air travel and virtually wiped out mankind , problem was we didn’t believe it as it it was considered far fetched Certainly in Europe our governments have decided we are all going electric sooner or later. I wonder what a gallon of petrol will cost in 2032, very few people will use it , so market shrinks , economy of scale reduces , its more expensive to produce and distribute, it’s as socially acceptable as smoking , etc. I‘ll go with £50 a gallon if you can find a filling station , or £45 on Amazon delivered by drone

 

[AndyRC]

It's not the same but I enjoy buzzing around in our family rwd id4. It's supposedly slow but I still prefer the driving to any Volvo (also dime in a dozen here, they are still very good too, have a soft spot for a base V60 as they aren't leaden).

Low cg, long travel suspension but flattish cornering, uncorrupted steering, wiggle tail out of tight bends (before esp steps in elegantly) and still pretty zippy with instant torque, it responds to driver input. Friends coming along say stuff like 'I didn't know you drive one like that' and 'you're the only one I've ever seen giving it some'. I haven't seen anyone else either lol.

Main issue is there are no real BEV 'hot hatch' or even better 'rally homologation' type drivers car BEVs developed yet so no replacing the Yaris anywhere soon...

We might have to wait a bit but they are coming . Alpine have declared they will become a BEV sports brand. Now I’d be interested in one of these

 

[AndyRC]

Not for me, they are not what they are claimed to be. Seen some forum members who have them speak about the free charging at their workplace, good luck with that when 50 or so are plugged in for 8 hrs at 9KW's companies just won't continue giving free access.

It’s not necessarily totally ”free” charging. The CEO had a battery Hybrid and if she charged at work for free she had to claim a lower rate for business milage, so I’m sure it was cost neutral for the company. If she had stayed there and gone full BEV she would have saved nearly £3k a year in Benefit In Kind on her company car. People were delaying changing company cars to get a BEV of any kind. A neighbour has an iD3 with no home charging but it’s saving her thousands in tax. At the moment BEV are a golden opportunity for company car users , it won’t last for ever, or suit everyone.

 

[Paul JC]

The boxer/cayman is apparently going all electric in 2025. Although not cheap it could be interesting.

 

[Bronson]

Infrastructure will catch up , not as quickly as some folk want. The CEO works in the electrical equipment supply industry and she spends a lot of time following trends and new products. There are a lot of companies brining out charging equipment, on and off street, companies are installing them, it’s happening, Shell , BP are moving into renewables and will ultimately move to recharging. BEV currently works for some , not all , I wonder what the situation will be in 10 years

I just can't see it. I've been trying to publicly charge for years and it's still a mess. Too many schemes, too many broken chargers and then there are other infrastructure issues; poor signal at remote spots meaning you can't even download the right app to use the charger (!) and limited power supply meaning you're charging at ridiculously slow rates.

Yes things will catch up BUT demand will constantly outstrip supply and this will frustrate more and more drivers that have switched to electric confining us to local trips - because the prospect of long distance journeys is too hazardous. A dozen chargers at a motorway services? They'll need fifty unless they can get them to charge at obscenely high rates 500kw+ which just isn't feasible, not for years and years. I hadn't realised till this morning but yesterday was two years since I went on the factory tour at Tesla in Fremont and the thing that struck me the most was; yes it's hugely impressive, the machinery etc but they cannot meet demand. There were piles of doors, body panels everywhere. Every square inch of that factory was taken up with stuff just piled up, it looked really disorganised. Since then we've had two years of chaos that has left a deep hole in supply chains around the world, yet governments persist with these nonsense target dates for ending the ICE. Maybe governments are happy for the masses to be kept local, but it's going to be chaotic for haulage, delivery companies etc once they start switching over. 'Your Amazon delivery driver is stuck in a queue of thirty other vehicles waiting to charge up' - be like the 70's again and the fuel crisis!

 

[Coastliner]

I was reading earlier this week about EV take up in Norway, and would you believe they have massive enticements to buy EV's yes no VAT which on a £50K car would amount to almost £10k. And they have an infrastructure to supply the electricity required.

 

[AndyRC]

I just can't see it. I've been trying to publicly charge for years and it's still a mess. Too many schemes, too many broken chargers and then there are other infrastructure issues; poor signal at remote spots meaning you can't even download the right app to use the charger (!) and limited power supply meaning you're charging at ridiculously slow rates.

Yes things will catch up BUT demand will constantly outstrip supply and this will frustrate more and more drivers that have switched to electric confining us to local trips - because the prospect of long distance journeys is too hazardous. A dozen chargers at a motorway services? They'll need fifty unless they can get them to charge at obscenely high rates 500kw+ which just isn't feasible, not for years and years. I hadn't realised till this morning but yesterday was two years since I went on the factory tour at Tesla in Fremont and the thing that struck me the most was; yes it's hugely impressive, the machinery etc but they cannot meet demand. There were piles of doors, body panels everywhere. Every square inch of that factory was taken up with stuff just piled up, it looked really disorganised. Since then we've had two years of chaos that has left a deep hole in supply chains around the world, yet governments persist with these nonsense target dates for ending the ICE. Maybe governments are happy for the masses to be kept local, but it's going to be chaotic for haulage, delivery companies etc once they start switching over. 'Your Amazon delivery driver is stuck in a queue of thirty other vehicles waiting to charge up' - be like the 70's again and the fuel crisis!

It’s frustrating and we are at the start of a huge transition.

I’m not sure that all commercial vehicles will be electric , Toyota is still committed to hydrogen. A lot of commercial vehicles “return to base“ every day and could be refuelled with hydrogen stored in bulk on site. If Hydrogen becomes more common hydrogen refilling stations will become common place and installing them at truck stops would be logical. I’m open minded and interested to see what technological solutions appear over the next 10 years , assuming I’m around to see them

 

[AndyRC]

I was reading earlier this week about EV take up in Norway, and would you believe they have massive enticements to buy EV's yes no VAT which on a £50K car would amount to almost £10k. And they have an infrastructure to supply the electricity required.

Their government “incentivised“ people to change behaviour and move to BEV , and I believe they helped fund it with revenue from energy exports. Are ICE prohibitively expensive in Norway The U.K. infrastructure is a “chicken and egg” situation , currently it’s good enough for an increasing number , otherwise BEV would be declining not increasing, its not good enough for other people. Currently if I had a BEV with a genuine 250 mile range I‘d have to charge away from home less than a dozen times a year and I could plan that in quite easily. If I could ensure my BEV was fully charged when I returned from a flight abroad , even less. My scales are now tipping towards BEV and have my name down for a test drive in a bZ4X (to go alongside a long term toy of a GR86)

 

[Andy R]

BEV will be the near and mid-term solution, even if for mostly regulatory reasons. The adoption rate is very dependent on the charging infrastructure. Most people will never have the option of charging at home.

As the tech progresses, electric vehicles (battery or fuel cell) will undoubtedly be better, faster and more efficient than any internal combustion engine car.

Audi’s new “electric” Dakar car was much faster than the ICE competitors while being massively overweight. Interestingly, they used a combustion engine to generate electricity for the electric powertrain, but no torque was transmitted from the ICE to the wheels.

Paddon’s Kona is fully fledged rally monster competing and winning against combustion rally cars in New Zealand, even if the class is a bit wonky.

Ability to electronically control the motors to millimeter perfection will eventually beat any mechanical differential. That being said the calibration work is far from done and it will probably take decades before they’re comparable to well sorted combustion cars in driving dynamics.

Weight is also a massive contributor. EV are fat pigs at the moment and even though the mass is down low and evenly distributed, there no hiding the inertia. Battery tech will improve and this will get sorted in time.

Do I prefer EVs to ICE cars?
No. I like engines.

I always like to think of a watch analogy when it comes to cars. We’re now approaching the end of the mechanical watch era and the quartz movement is coming. Objectively better, much more accurate, lower maintenance and way simpler. However, are there any watch enthusiasts who prefer a Casio to a Rolex/Omega/IWC?

The combustion engine will always be around for those people who care. It always boggles my mind that there is an actual, mechanical, fire-breathing power plant under the bonnet. How frigging cool is that!? Hopefully e-fuels will keep ICE cars on the roads for the foreseeable future.

I don’t think even the most diehard ICE fans will need to get their feelings hurt about the fact that majority of people who don’t care about cars will slowly turn to BEVs? Does it make any difference if your grandma’s Fiesta is powered by batteries or a 1.0 liter ICE engine? That thing isn’t heading to the Petersen Automotive Museum regardless, so no damage done to car culture in my mind.

The environmental aspect is a bit hazy. BEVs work if you keep them on the road for a long time to offset the higher emissions from manufacturing. Are they going to be very durable and future proof with the current technology? Maybe? Regardless, the battery will degrade if you use it or not and you’ll end up with a massive paper weight in the end.

ICE cars do not have an expiration date, if you keep them away from rust and corrosion, you can park it for a 100 years and it’ll work as it did before.

The battery recycling aspect is much touted, but almost all of the recycling “plans” are literally to bunch them together next to a wind-farm and use them as a power storage. Recycling the actual raw materials to be used again is a much more complex issue that has not been solved and the mining of raw materials is the biggest environmental drawback along with the usual fossil heavy energy mix.