GR Yaris (Gen 2) GR Yaris Mk2 (MY2024->)

[Masta]

Just use the word manual?

But no nerves hit I’ve owned both and the Yaris just didn’t have a great gearbox so swapped, my other cars a manual just I don’t get a hard on when changing gear. Like the snowboard vs ski thing we’re all different. For gen2 in the UK it was around 50/50 for manual vs auto.

In Germany is the DAT more frequent. I think about 75% (Gen2).

 

[spectre7]

The market proves it. Manuals hold value because demand is higher. Look at older cars where both existed. The E46 M3 6MT are selling for double the price of the SMG. Yes, double. That’s not because SMG is “fine,” it’s because people don’t want it. When the GR Yaris is done, the same thing is going to happen.

Idk, in my region they go for similar prices. Most of the price is down to the state of the car rather than transmission, there might be some smaller price differences but definitely nothing in range of 2x more expensive. Also issue of SMG is that it is simply from different era where manual could indeed beat and provide way better experience than SMG. In general auto vs manual prices of used cars is heavily dependent on that specific vehicle, there have been many great auto performance cars with lackluster manual transmission and obviously vice versa. I would not generalize it.

Also on topic of skiing vs snowboarding... There is no space for debate; as a ski connoisseur I am legally obliged to declare war on any mention of snowboarding, there is only one proper way of skidding down the piste!

 

[GTZ]

Here in Spain the DAT version costs 10k+ , new from the dealer, once you go on the second hand market you losing money obiouvsly.
Anyways auto or manual is Up to the final customer taste. But for me there's no debate, the clutch the stick... Is where the Magic happens.I like to keep my three legs working.

 

[speeddemon666]

Wow, hit a nerve, didn’t it?

An automatic is not a proper gearbox for most enthusiasts and it never will be. Doesn’t matter if it’s quicker on paper, quicker on lap times, or if Morizo himself says it’s great. That’s not what people mean when they talk about a proper gearbox.

This has been argued to death for decades. It’s not about numbers, it’s about engagement. A manual is part of the experience. You’re doing the work. You’re involved. That’s the whole point.

As long as manufacturers keep offering both manual and auto in the same model, the manual will keep being seen as the “proper” gearhead choice because it’s the more engaging one. I could’ve used a different word than “proper,” sure, but the idea doesn’t change. In enthusiast circles, manual is the default answer.

And nobody is saying you should be forced into buying a manual. Autos have plenty of valid reasons. Traffic, convenience, consistency, whatever. It’s not about one being morally correct. It’s just that one is seen as the enthusiast pick by most people.

The market proves it. Manuals hold value because demand is higher. Look at older cars where both existed. The E46 M3 6MT are selling for double the price of the SMG. Yes, double. That’s not because SMG is “fine,” it’s because people don’t want it. When the GR Yaris is done, the same thing is going to happen.

So yeah, for cars like this, most people who actually care will call the manual the “proper” gearbox.

Or is the word “proper” canceled now too? Should I say the manual “identifies as” the proper gearbox so that feelings aren’t hurt?

As an auto owner, I have to say it suits me now. I don't want to drive the nuts off the car every time I drive and so that level of engagement you speak of, which of course is more than tangible, isn't needed all of the time. So for me, on balance, the auto, is the one I'd prefer.
There are many reasons as to why manual gearboxes may be more popular and more expensive. The SMG is I think a bad example in that conversation - it's a poor example of an auto gearbox using new technology in a fast sports car.
The popularity of BMWs M cars these days is a testament to how far auto gearboxes have come since and Toyota's 8 speed DAT is every bit as good as ZF's.

 

[6mt]

Idk, in my region they go for similar prices. Most of the price is down to the state of the car rather than transmission, there might be some smaller price differences but definitely nothing in range of 2x more expensive. Also issue of SMG is that it is simply from different era where manual could indeed beat and provide way better experience than SMG. In general auto vs manual prices of used cars is heavily dependent on that specific vehicle, there have been many great auto performance cars with lackluster manual transmission and obviously vice versa. I would not generalize it.

Also on topic of skiing vs snowboarding... There is no space for debate; as a ski connoisseur I am legally obliged to declare war on any mention of snowboarding, there is only one proper way of skidding down the piste!

Every region is different, I agree, and the local enthusiast culture matters a lot. From what I have seen traveling the world, the US enthusiast crowd, for example, is more obsessed with manuals than pretty much anywhere. There is a reason North America got the E60 M5 with a manual option when the rest of the world did not. Same reason why G80 M3 can still be ordered with a manual in US and not in UK. And so on…

On the value point, I am not saying every manual is magically worth twice as much in every country. I am saying that in markets with a strong enthusiast base, when the same model was sold with both transmissions, the manual commands at least double the price when everything else is equal, same miles, same condition, same spec. E46 M3 is the obvious example, SMG is discounted because demand is weak. Same story with cars like the E9x generation, where the enthusiast pick tends to be the one that holds the strongest.

The skiing vs snowboarding comparisons are kind of missing the point. This is not about personal taste like colors. This is about engagement and how the car is driven. A manual requires constant input and timing, an auto does not. That difference is objective, even if someone prefers one over the other.

So sure, buy what you like, nobody is forcing a manual. But when a big chunk of the market consistently chose the manual when both options existed, that is the market telling you what the enthusiast default is. Calling that “not a thing” is just pretending the demand curve does not exist.

As an auto owner, I have to say it suits me now. I don't want to drive the nuts off the car every time I drive and so that level of engagement you speak of, which of course is more than tangible, isn't needed all of the time. So for me, on balance, the auto, is the one I'd prefer.
There are many reasons as to why manual gearboxes may be more popular and more expensive. The SMG is I think a bad example in that conversation - it's a poor example of an auto gearbox using new technology in a fast sports car.
The popularity of BMWs M cars these days is a testament to how far auto gearboxes have come since and Toyota's 8 speed DAT is every bit as good as ZF's.

Again, this isn’t about what you personally prefer day to day. Like whatever you want. But the market and the enthusiast crowd are still pretty consistent on one thing: when a car is offered with both, the manual ends up being the one people call the “proper” option, especially for something like the GR Yaris, which is basically a manual first car.

On the BMW point, modern M cars are a different product for a different buyer. They’ve turned into fast luxury cars with a performance badge, not the lighter, more connected stuff BMW used to build. They’re heavy, the steering feel is muted, and a lot of the buyer base is there for the status and the straight line speed, not the raw engagement. I’m not guessing, I’ve owned several.

And nobody is cross shopping a GR Yaris with a G80 M3. They’re not the same category, they don’t attract the same crowd, and they’re not bought for the same reasons. So using modern M car sales as proof that “autos are what enthusiasts want” doesn’t really land, especially when the G80 M3 is still a popular option as a 6MT in some markets.

Even within BMW’s world, a lot of people who have owned multiple M cars will tell you the F8X and E9X generation DCT was superior to the current ZF 8 speed, which is nowhere near as sharp or as fun when you’re actually pushing. It does the job, but it doesn’t feel special in the same way.

 

[EMMM]

LOL, "my gearbox is more proper than yours!" and "shifting with stick/paddles makes me a better car enthusiast"

Both manual and DAT are fine. Both have its drawbacks. Both are not ideal. Who cares?

 

[Ecsrobin]

LOL, "my gearbox is more proper than yours!" and "shifting with stick/paddles makes me a better car enthusiast"

Both manual and DAT are fine. Both have its drawbacks. Both are not ideal. Who cares?

Agreed.

Every region is different, I agree, and the local enthusiast culture matters a lot. From what I have seen traveling the world, the US enthusiast crowd, for example, is more obsessed with manuals than pretty much anywhere. There is a reason North America got the E60 M5 with a manual option when the rest of the world did not. Same reason why G80 M3 can still be ordered with a manual in US and not in UK. And so on…

This is an interesting one. In the UK which for many years has favoured manual I feel we are generally switching to auto. We’re seeing the advantages of the gearbox over manual.

In the US which has generally favoured autos they’re starting to crave manuals, there’s always been an element of that but it feels the want has increased.

 

[6mt]

Agreed.

This is an interesting one. In the UK which for many years has favoured manual I feel we are generally switching to auto. We’re seeing the advantages of the gearbox over manual.

In the US which has generally favoured autos they’re starting to crave manuals, there’s always been an element of that but it feels the want has increased.

I mean the performance advantage of autos has been there for decades. Nobody serious ever argued otherwise. Even back in the early SMG days, the auto gearboxes were already quicker than a human with a clutch. Then DCT showed up and made the gap even bigger. But unless you are chasing lap times or bragging rights, which is a tiny slice of enthusiasts, it barely matters.

The US has always been an auto market and still is. But the enthusiast crowd there has also been more pro manual than Europe or almost anywhere else I have been. That is why the US kept getting more manual M cars than most countries.

BMW still offers the M3 with a manual in the US for one reason: it sells well. If it did not, it would be gone tomorrow.

Same story with the Civic Type R. In the US, it is basically the poster child for modern manual performance cars. If Honda offered an auto version, it would not be some huge sales booster, it would just dilute the whole point of the car.

And then you have stuff like the new Prelude. Auto only is a big part of why it is not selling. People can pretend it is about something else, but when you take the third pedal away, you lose the exact crowd that would have cared in the first place.

 

[epo]

A manual is part of the experience. You’re doing the work. You’re involved. That’s the whole point.

This is the reason I went a manual over the auto. The car wouldn't be fun as a daily if it was an auto.

 

[Wildcat]

The SMG transmission in the M3 E46 is less popular than the manual gearbox for a specific reason: it's prone to defects. Although the M3 E46 undoubtedly drives well with the SMG, its manual transmission is among the best of its kind. It doesn't get much more precise than that.

 

[Norbi]

The US has always been an auto market and still is. But the enthusiast crowd there has also been more pro manual than Europe or almost anywhere else I have been. That is why the US kept getting more manual M cars than most countries.

BMW still offers the M3 with a manual in the US for one reason: it sells well. If it did not, it would be gone tomorrow.

Having lived in the US for 16 years, I bought my kiddos a manual for one other reason: thieves in the US are too stupid to operate 3 pedals with their two feet. It’s really a good way to avoid car thefts. They even have stickers for the driver’s side window: attention, theft device - manual car…

On the value point, I am not saying every manual is magically worth twice as much in every country. I am saying that in markets with a strong enthusiast base, when the same model was sold with both transmissions, the manual commands at least double the price when everything else is equal, same miles, same condition, same spec. E46 M3 is the obvious example, SMG is discounted because demand is weak. Same story with cars like the E9x generation, where the enthusiast pick tends to be the one that holds the strongest.

So sure, buy what you like, nobody is forcing a manual. But when a big chunk of the market consistently chose the manual when both options existed, that is the market telling you what the enthusiast default is. Calling that “not a thing” is just pretending the demand curve does not exist.

On the BMW point, modern M cars are a different product for a different buyer. They’ve turned into fast luxury cars with a performance badge, not the lighter, more connected stuff BMW used to build. They’re heavy, the steering feel is muted, and a lot of the buyer base is there for the status and the straight line speed, not the raw engagement. I’m not guessing, I’ve owned several.

Even within BMW’s world, a lot of people who have owned multiple M cars will tell you the F8X and E9X generation DCT was superior to the current ZF 8 speed, which is nowhere near as sharp or as fun when you’re actually pushing. It does the job, but it doesn’t feel special in the same way.

You’re reasoning from quite a few older generation cars, with transmissions you can’t compare to today’s technology.

And you’re arguing about resale values. Fine for you. Everybody has and may have their own criteria.

Just keep in mind that some people would never buy their car with the later resale value as a main reason.
It’s the same to not enjoy it to its maximum, keep mileage low, just because you want to keep its value for the next guy.

What’s the point of even arguing about that? You’re the 6mt dude with the stick, got it.
Enjoy!

 

[TheManWithTheStick]

Now now! I'm the dude with the stick

 

[Norbi]

Now now! I'm the dude with the stick

Ah! So you rather Ski than snowboard as well? Nice to meet you! I do both, by the way

 

[spectre7]

I do both, by the way

Heresy!

 

[6mt]

You’re reasoning from quite a few older generation cars, with transmissions you can’t compare to today’s technology.

And you’re arguing about resale values. Fine for you. Everybody has and may have their own criteria.

Just keep in mind that some people would never buy their car with the later resale value as a main reason.
It’s the same to not enjoy it to its maximum, keep mileage low, just because you want to keep its value for the next guy.

What’s the point of even arguing about that? You’re the 6mt dude with the stick, got it.
Enjoy!

I think you missed my point about resale.

I am not saying I buy cars based on resale. I do not. I keep my cars a long time and I drive them.

The point is that resale is a clean signal of demand. When the same enthusiast car is offered in both transmissions and the manual consistently commands a premium, that is the market telling you what enthusiasts prefer. That has nothing to do with me babying mileage for the next guy.

Also, you said I am using older examples you cannot compare to today’s tech. Sure, modern autos are insanely good. Faster, smoother, more efficient. Nobody disputes that. But speed is not the only variable, engagement is. The manual is still popular because it changes the whole experience, not because it wins a stopwatch contest.

Which brings me to the word “proper”. I called 6MT a proper gearbox in the context of an enthusiast first car, and somehow that turned into a weird ego debate. If an adjective about a transmission feels like a personal attack, that is not my problem lol

And on the GR Yaris point, Toyota answered this themselves with their product decisions. Gen 1 launched manual only, because they knew exactly who the car was for and what the character was supposed to be. For a homologation style, enthusiast first platform, manual was the default, and yes, the proper fit.

Gen 2 getting an auto is obviously about widening the net. More markets, more buyers, more sales. Totally fine. But it does not rewrite what the GR Yaris was built around in the first place.

Anyway, you are right about one thing. There is no point arguing. People like what they like. I will keep calling a manual proper for cars that are built for it.

 

[SckSqzBngBlo]

Gen 2 getting an auto is obviously about widening the net. More markets, more buyers, more sales. Totally fine. But it does not rewrite what the GR Yaris was built around in the first place.

100%. The original was not wife/girlfriend friendly.
"You went from a BMW to this???".
"Where do I put my handbag?"
"It's so loud in here"
"You spent how much on a Toyota hatchback"
"Manual only, in 2020?"

If your wife/girlfriend approved of your gen1 purchase then she is definitely a keeper.

 

[speeddemon666]

I think you missed my point about resale.

I am not saying I buy cars based on resale. I do not. I keep my cars a long time and I drive them.

The point is that resale is a clean signal of demand. When the same enthusiast car is offered in both transmissions and the manual consistently commands a premium, that is the market telling you what enthusiasts prefer. That has nothing to do with me babying mileage for the next guy.

Also, you said I am using older examples you cannot compare to today’s tech. Sure, modern autos are insanely good. Faster, smoother, more efficient. Nobody disputes that. But speed is not the only variable, engagement is. The manual is still popular because it changes the whole experience, not because it wins a stopwatch contest.

Which brings me to the word “proper”. I called 6MT a proper gearbox in the context of an enthusiast first car, and somehow that turned into a weird ego debate. If an adjective about a transmission feels like a personal attack, that is not my problem lol

And on the GR Yaris point, Toyota answered this themselves with their product decisions. Gen 1 launched manual only, because they knew exactly who the car was for and what the character was supposed to be. For a homologation style, enthusiast first platform, manual was the default, and yes, the proper fit.

Gen 2 getting an auto is obviously about widening the net. More markets, more buyers, more sales. Totally fine. But it does not rewrite what the GR Yaris was built around in the first place.

Anyway, you are right about one thing. There is no point arguing. People like what they like. I will keep calling a manual proper for cars that are built for it.

I'm sorry, but that is just NOT, a proper post!

 

[GTZ]

I think you missed my point about resale.

I am not saying I buy cars based on resale. I do not. I keep my cars a long time and I drive them.

The point is that resale is a clean signal of demand. When the same enthusiast car is offered in both transmissions and the manual consistently commands a premium, that is the market telling you what enthusiasts prefer. That has nothing to do with me babying mileage for the next guy.

Also, you said I am using older examples you cannot compare to today’s tech. Sure, modern autos are insanely good. Faster, smoother, more efficient. Nobody disputes that. But speed is not the only variable, engagement is. The manual is still popular because it changes the whole experience, not because it wins a stopwatch contest.

Which brings me to the word “proper”. I called 6MT a proper gearbox in the context of an enthusiast first car, and somehow that turned into a weird ego debate. If an adjective about a transmission feels like a personal attack, that is not my problem lol

And on the GR Yaris point, Toyota answered this themselves with their product decisions. Gen 1 launched manual only, because they knew exactly who the car was for and what the character was supposed to be. For a homologation style, enthusiast first platform, manual was the default, and yes, the proper fit.

Gen 2 getting an auto is obviously about widening the net. More markets, more buyers, more sales. Totally fine. But it does not rewrite what the GR Yaris was built around in the first place.

Anyway, you are right about one thing. There is no point arguing. People like what they like. I will keep calling a manual proper for cars that are built for it.

Actually in this case the automatic GR is slower than the manual...

 

[GTZ]

I think we’re all misunderstanding each other here maybe because we’re talking through a chat without seeing each other’s faces or hearing the tone of each message… And I don’t think this should turn into a “let’s see who’s got the bigger one” kind of debate.

The whole thing started when a member said that a manual gearbox will always be more appreciated by petrolheads than an automatic. And honestly, I think anyone who wants to believe otherwise knows they’re wrong it’s just harder to admit it when you shift gears with your pinky on the steering wheel, or don’t even use that finger…

We all know an automatic is faster than a manual, more comfortable in traffic, and as a result, the car is slightly quicker overall — although interestingly, in this case the GR is actually slower in auto than in manual (there are test videos showing it).

No one’s denying that. But history, the market, and even the way certain car models are named (like the original Golf GTI or the last GTI Mk7 manual) all show that a manual gearbox is simply THE gearbox for driving enthusiasts. That’s all. Is this a free forum where each one IS free to speak his opinions or do we all have to pray to the same god?

And of course, everyone should enjoy their car, their gearbox, and life in general!

 

[Ecsrobin]

And in other news…