Electric Cars

https://www.spiked-online.com/2024/09/05/the-elitism-of-electric-cars/

A little retort to the Guadian article.

And another thing…the Guardian article completely failed to explain why residuals on EVs are so bad or how sustainable it is long term. Retention rate is awful - huge numbers of people buy an EV and then have replaced it with ICE or hybrid (a couple of surveys have suggested this now) and for how much longer will people, especially companies, swallow the enormous losses that come with buying a new EV?
 
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Apparently it’s way too complicated to install secondary meters at private residences that have home chargers and place VAT on public chargers to make up for the shortfall in revenue from VED with ‘everyone’ switching to EVs, so instead the government thinks installing tens of millions of little black boxes in everything that uses the roads, which will constantly report to satellites about where we’ve been and somehow use that to build an enormous database that works out how we should be charged (will that be daily, weekly, monthly, yearly??) is a far cheaper and easier option.

Gaslighting 2.0

And another reason this is purely a totalitarian power grab is that for the last two years every domestic car charger in the U.K. has had to be smart - so it’s already reporting real world usage. Your electricity company could very simply stick an extra tariff onto the charger and voila, the government has made up its VED shortfall.

But no, let’s monitor and track everyone 24/7 in the name of balancing the books…
 
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I mean... it was obvious to anyone with a couple of braincells to rub together that the government would look to plug the gap in ICE VED at some point.

I doubt the tracking blackbox will fly but never say never with Blair2.0.
 
A quick reminder that 97.4% of cars on the road are paying VED.

Simple answer is to bring in VED for EVs rated by weight or as mentioned above with putting VAT or an extra tariff on public and domestic charging - especially as most of the infrastructure is already in place.

There is simply no case for road pricing.
 
Agreed there is no case for road pricing or black boxes.

EVs are already going to subject to VED from next year, that's surely the easiest and least controversial means of shoring up Treasury revenue as the split of ICE:EV shifts.

There's still an incentive to go with the lowest CO2-emitting cars, but yes I think that adding in weight to the calculation could be an effective lever in convincing buyers and manufacturers to focus on smaller, lighter, and less profligate cars overall.
 
Bronson said:
A quick reminder that 97.4% of cars on the road are paying VED.

Simple answer is to bring in VED for EVs rated by weight or as mentioned above with putting VAT or an extra tariff on public and domestic charging - especially as most of the infrastructure is already in place.

There is simply no case for road pricing.
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Agree.

VED charged on fuel/electricity makes total sense.

You drive, you pay.

Completely eliminates both the VED bureaucracy and the ability of arseholes to dodge the system.
 
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How do you square the differing VAT rates then?

That just gets hugely complicated and provides incentives to exploit loopholes and cloak one use as another.

Far better just to use the current VED system which is easy, which everyone broadly understands and tolerates, and which can't really be evaded.
 
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I think you could avoid the VAT issue and just lump a 10% tariff on all electricity consumed by your car, whether you charge it at home or publicly or whether it’s a company car or privately owned.

Someone doing 10,000 miles a year (say 8k from domestic charging and 2k from public charging) will spend approximately £800 a year. £80 to the Exchequer seems fair. (Well all tax is theft, but I’m not debating that 😉 )

But you could also just have a simple VED system with a sliding scale of battery size + vehicle mass.
 
That's the point though, how do you prove it's a car consuming the electricity or not?

Plenty people will just use granny chargers if it saves them a few beans, even 2.3 kW overnight is enough for topping up for daily running about for many people.

And this creates an incentive for folk to bodge higher wattage supplies to avoid the extra VAT. People are tight and this will lead to fires etc.

Unintended consequences and all that.
 
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All domestic chargers installed since 2022 in the U.K. are ‘smart’ and capable of providing consumption statistics. That said, they could easily stipulate that all domestic chargers have a secondary meter. You buy a wall charger or you buy a house with one, you are legally obliged to inform your electricity supplier. Those with PHEVs and a domestic charger would likely face a double-tax, as they are already subject to VED.

There are two million plug-in vehicles in the U.K. of which 1.2 million are fully electric. There are about as many domestic chargers installed, with about half that are ‘smart’. I did read somewhere that UKPN, which covers most of the infrastructure in the south east have mapped the charging network and only expect a few older devices that are unregistered. What they mean by ‘a few’, who knows. It’s certainly not as a big a project as trying to equip 39 million vehicles with tracking devices and working a system to manage it.

The biggest issue would be, as you say, with the 3 pin chargers but I’m sure there are some nanny state solutions to dissuade people from using them.
 
Another Guardian article here - some recommended electric cars (if you want to avoid Musk's offerings).

A GR-Zoo forum favourite is in there...
 
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If you're adding vat to electric used by cars, what about domestic solar as there's no direct cost paid there. Also, what about when you're paid to use electric? Do you get to claim tax back?
 
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Bronson said:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...cles-pollution-rivers-environment-agency.html

When virtue signalling comes right up against reality. The eco warriors can fight it out amongst themselves on this issue, but linking vehicle mass to VED might be one way of convincing consumers to buy with their heads than their hearts.
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This type of article feels like a massive reach given the profligate heavy ICE SUVs already on the roads and the degree to which water companies are dumping waste into our rivers and seas.

When people harp on about the weight of EVs, I always come back to the fact that the new BMW M3 is within 50kg of the new Tesla Model 3.

Far be it from me to suggest the Daily Mail is clickbait outrage farming.
 
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Mike said:
If you're adding vat to electric used by cars, what about domestic solar as there's no direct cost paid there. Also, what about when you're paid to use electric? Do you get to claim tax back?
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It would be similar to a Climate Levy Charge, another line on the invoice, than VAT.
 
In Sweden energy tax on electricity is higher than diesel seen per energy content which really makes no sense as Swedens electricity is one of the greenest. Luckily EV is much more efficient, in my case roughly 5x more, and energy tax only constitutes less than a third of the total cost of diesel. This is for ALL electricity, and while totally skewed, it gives government income and still can't stop electricity from making much more sense.
 
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And I'm totally for including weight back into the vehicle tax systems worldwide. Car makers need incentives to keep cars light. Less resources used both in manufacturing and use, and less crash energy in the transportation system - even when mass is a much smaller issue with EV due to regen for energy consumption.

My 600/650hp 5N isn't heavier than a Panamera ST or a RS6/7 so it's a general modern car obesity crisis, imho indeed sparked by having no tax incentives to keep cars light.
 
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I think it's sparked more by manufacturers reacting to focus groups and at least two of the top 3 highest demands for consumers are a high up driving position and plenty of space to carry stuff. Unconstrained, manufacturers build what their clients want (I don't actually have a problem with this) - but I do have a problem with a general decrease in driving standards brought about by technology, it inevitably becomes a vicious circle. People want more s**t in their cars; heated seats, improved sound systems etc and the cars become heavier.

Sure most people will call for some sort of government intervention as the actual capacity to imagine anything outside of that seems to be beyond them, but some manufacturers are more responsible than others, and consumers/drivers should take their share of the blame.
 
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Bronson said:
I think it's sparked more by manufacturers reacting to focus groups and at least two of the top 3 highest demands for consumers are a high up driving position and plenty of space to carry stuff. Unconstrained, manufacturers build what their clients want (I don't actually have a problem with this) - but I do have a problem with a general decrease in driving standards brought about by technology, it inevitably becomes a vicious circle. People want more s**t in their cars; heated seats, improved sound systems etc and the cars become heavier.

Sure most people will call for some sort of government intervention as the actual capacity to imagine anything outside of that seems to be beyond them, but some manufacturers are more responsible than others, and consumers/drivers should take their share of the blame.
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Yeah I have a consumer within my own ranks that wants to sit higher - I try to keep her somewhat down to earth... If everyone sits high up we've only lost, not gained.
 
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Through a series of very non-typical events I've barely driven my Yaris for about a month and have mostly been tooling about in the Tesla, doing a few thousand kilometres, with another trip to Amsterdam and back this weekend.

Jumping back into it occasionally has highlighted a few things:
  • The button dance is depressing. The Tesla just needs a single tap on the speed limit symbol on the screen to disable the bonging, but I forget what a pita it is to complete the pre-flight checks in the GR.
  • You get used to the one-pedal driving surprisingly quickly. Found myself heading for a hedge on more than one occasion as you expect the car to slow down when you lift-off! Thankfully the Yaris always responds dutifully to a bit more lock ;)
  • The Yaris feels slow :(
  • On the flip side, the steering feels like a Caterham compared to the numb Tesla, and the composure over crests, camber changes, and just in general when you are 'on it' is in a different league.
  • The stereo in the Yaris really is crap!
Unlike the previous diesel Audi I really don't mind taking the Tesla over the Yaris for commutes etc. It's still fast and pleasurable enough to pilot, where previously I would only take the Audi if I needed the space.
 
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