GR Yaris Balance of tuning and durability limits

[micsub]

Sure thing. Not only is there the warranty issue, but also an insurance issue. Here in France those who remap their ECU, if by any bad luck they're involved in an accident with Injured Persons, the insurance dispatches an expert to verify the ECU is OEM. If not, insurance backs out and you're in deep trouble.
The only "mods" I brought to the car is basically improved cooling where possible. Toyota GR engine vented under-tray, slightly larger air duct with bottom scoop to the OEM air box, foam air filter, Titanium brake pad shims & braided brake hoses.
I was thinking about an Oil Cooler, asked the GR dealer what he thought of it, and the answer was clear : If any Engine issues, even non-related to the Oil Cooler, warranty will be void...
The next (and last) will be the HJS down-pipe to relieve the turbo from part of the generated heat & back-pressure. (I'm keeping the rest of the OEM exhaust with the OPF back part till the silencer heat wrapped to minimize the heat induced to the rear diff).
Anyway, to be honest, before adding any power to the GRY, I first want to be sure I'm capable of using 100 % of the stock power and all the rest of the capabilities of the car to it's limit... There's room for improvement.

 

[yuri1312]

Soon it has been three years this car is running about. And with that more knowledge emerges on the strengths and weakness of the G16E-GTS

We already know about the valve springs and the flaws in the valvetrain. In another thread this vid (thanks @yuri1312 )

emerged with a shattered piston and in the comments there are more witnessing about pistons cracked or similar engine damage.

Now roughly there are three things that kill and engine (except outright bad tuning):
Too much torque (mid range)
Too much heat (too high power)
Detonation of sorts

The first too are factors in metal fatique and don't necessarily show in the beginnings. The latter seems to be a factor in JP failures as it seems they aren't using the correct spec oils and may be getting LSPI which is worst at low speeds. This is excluding other factors of bad tuning, oil and fuel starvation etc that can also cause issues.

It seems the pistons aren't the engines strongest part, not incidentally then that these were upgraded for the GR Corolla which has to pass tough durability dyno testing before released to market.

In the end it is all compound, most know the rules of the game, pay to play. And this engine isn't bombproof we are understanding more and more. But what engine is, especially at this performance and price point.

Feel free to discuss expectations of durability with different tuning levels, and sharing experience of where the limits seem to go, more or less...

hi!

if you want to extend to the drive train, you also have the well known issue with the transfer case blowing up when using sticky tires (happened, at least that I know of, to fensport, and lamspeed sells a billet transfer case to cover this), and I've also seen a thread with a build from another owner (not sure if it was here or in the other forum), where he's had multiple issues with synchronizers breaking when running above 500 Nm of torque (but as mentioned above, that might be pushing the limits of what the gearbox can handle).

 

[Michael Knight]

hi!

if you want to extend to the drive train, you also have the well known issue with the transfer case blowing up when using sticky tires (happened, at least that I know of, to fensport, and lamspeed sells a billet transfer case to cover this), and I've also seen a thread with a build from another owner (not sure if it was here or in the other forum), where he's had multiple issues with synchronizers breaking when running above 500 Nm of torque (but as mentioned above, that might be pushing the limits of what the gearbox can handle).

Not certain but transfer case failures can be heat related issue too so cooling there might help.

 

[Onehp]

hi!

if you want to extend to the drive train, you also have the well known issue with the transfer case blowing up when using sticky tires

At what power level? Power becomes a certain torque at a given speed, and the ones you mention run afaik more than twice the OE power level, so twice the torque for drivetrain - highest in low gears, especially if torque limiting tyre slip is not present. If so not suprising something lets go....

@Diyman25 gearbox issues are at a relatively suprising low torque increase (~50% and quickly also), that's interesting and good that he shares his findings as that might infer that long term durability could be a good bit lower again....

Yes good to include drivetrain!

 

[micsub]

Yes drive-train issues were heard of as well due to excessive torque...

 

[yuri1312]

At what power level? Power becomes a certain torque at a given speed, and the ones you mention run afaik more than twice the OE power level, so twice the torque for drivetrain - highest in low gears, especially if torque limiting tyre slip is not present. If so not suprising something lets go....

@Diyman25 gearbox issues are at a relatively suprising low torque increase (~50% and quickly also), that's interesting and good that he shares his findings as that might infer that long term durability could be a good bit lower again....

Yes good to include drivetrain!

haven't seen any specific numbers tbqh, but have these as reference material:

Lamspeed Racing 2020+ Toyota GR Yaris / Corolla 7075 Billet Transfer Case

Details: Big sticky tyres and big launches? Whether it's on a tarmac rally stage, hill climb or at the drag strip we have seen that the weak point at this stage of development is the transfer case housing tends to twist and split leaving the guts of the transfer case on the ground. We have...

lamspeedracing.com

 

[micsub]

Good day to all,

Came across this, which helps to sleep better after all these defects mentioned...

 

[micsub]

 

[Onehp]

For me its all about balance of reporting. Toyota will have durability testing so there car has a reasonable chance to make it to 200-300 thousand km without major issues. Good to see the, relatively, positive report by Micha, at the same time one must keep in mind that many issues aren't made public either. I have been on the other side of the fence and I have seen the statistics of warranty claims related to tuning, while at the same time I've sat in the car with guys selling tuning saying it's all fine (for them...). Anyway, there is a reason why manufacturers make it harder to tune cars, I'm just interesting where the grey zone starts and ends, roughly, on this platform - long term...

 

[yuri1312]

While we're on the subject, I've recently found this thread over in the GR Corolla forum, where they're going through what changed and what didn't between our engine and theirs. Might be worth checking, and see if indeed the parts weren't just superseded, but indeed were improved for their version of the G16 (and if any of those might make sense for us to eventually adopt ): https://www.grcorollaforum.com/threads/drivetrain-part-differences-gr-yaris-vs-gr-corolla.1437/

 

[micsub]

While we're on the subject, I've recently found this thread over in the GR Corolla forum, where they're going through what changed and what didn't between our engine and theirs. Might be worth checking, and see if indeed the parts weren't just superseded, but indeed were improved for their version of the G16 (and if any of those might make sense for us to eventually adopt ): https://www.grcorollaforum.com/threads/drivetrain-part-differences-gr-yaris-vs-gr-corolla.1437/

That's good news to eventually upgrade our GRY engine with GRC improved parts if / when required.

 

[Onehp]

That's good news to eventually upgrade our GRY engine with GRC improved parts if / when required.

The upgrade when you break philosophy will land you in a 1000hp Yaris eventually

 

[DrSetup]

Durability isn't that simple to diagnos or just to say that the transfercase splits open at a certain torque number. It's almost always down the driver and maintenance when something breaks. Of course strapping a huge full frame Garret on a stock engine will give you a certain result most likley. But to say you need this and/or that to reach a certain number isn't really making sense.
There is so many variables that comes into the equation when you want to discuss for exampel why some driver/car can't get a stock clutch to hold vs a tuned car with nearly 500nm still can run the same stock clutch without problems.

Most of the split/cracked pistons me or my tuner heard of is down to bad tuning (this motor can't take any more timing than it has stock) from people thinking/tuning this enginge like an old EVO/S14/2JZ or something like that. Its a modern enging that can take make a shitload of power if tuned/modded and maintained correctly.

My car has been on Syvecs and a hybrid making +360whp (made 204whp stock on same dyno) since 15000km and I'm now close to 30000km. Doing mostly track or fun runs so its definitely getting the beans.

Still on stock clutch for exampel. (Made a low 12s quartermile that one time I tested launching it) Never had a brakedown (yet). Always warm it up properly and maintain it without cheaping out on anything.

About to try E85 on a bigger pump and injectors but will not aim for dynonumbers but instead driveability and try to make my clutch last..
I'll promise to give you guys any information we can gather during this "test" but it will be pretty usless if you not using the same parts and tuner as I am. And even if someone did exactly the same you could always count on variables from the factory making it "interesting".

 

[Onehp]

@DrSetup if I someday decide I haven't spent enough on power mods, I would like to go E85 with your tuner depending on your coming experience... But really 310ish crank hp is plenty for road fun and still a spitting chance for - unrelated - engine warranty...

 

[DrSetup]

@DrSetup if I someday decide I haven't spent enough on power mods, I would like to go E85 with your tuner depending on your coming experience... But really 310ish crank hp is plenty for road fun and still a spitting chance for - unrelated - engine warranty...

I'll promise to update on any progress, backwards or forwards equally... My main concern right now is the stock clutch will probably not like much lote power but good thing with modern turbo cars that they can cap power really easy.
On the streets I mostly drive on "low" boost. (295whp) becuse it's the most balanced but still fast enough to get you into problems a bit to quick. But alone on a nice stretch of road or on the track there seems to never be enough power. But then again I think my E36 turbo is a fun car where my friends think its a bit scary.

 

[p3.auto]

One thing I noticed, there is no EGT sensor on this car, rather it is calculated by the ECU afaik. Meaning that piggyback, incomplete ECU remapping will invalidate any inbuilt ecu temp limits there. If anything this knackers turbos...

Also wonder how aftermarket ecu's deal with this, a vid of someone using antilag too much blowing the turbo out, also here maybe there was no applicable temp limit in place?

I can only speak for Syvecs but PNP solutions tend to just use what's on the car already, plus a wideband lambda. You're absolutely right that with no EGT monitoring stuff could be getting way too hot especially with ALS, i've seen a few people who have it abuse it without much care. The Syvecs is basically an S8 in drag that you can add inputs to so i've installed an EGT probe in the downpipe which isn't the perfect solution being after the turbo but better than nothing, it's a simple job and enabling the input and setting up the limits on the ECU doesn't take long so I don't understand why companies charging £5k+ to supply and fit the ECU aren't doing this for peace of mind

Acme set mine up and they map the GR Cup rally cars in Italy for Toyota that also use Syvecs so if he's happy i'm happy, he's probably one of the most informed GR+Syvecs guys out there.

Agreed.

If any tuner can state this car on 350 hp can do 50.000 proper miles on the Ring, I’m all ears. I’m not saying it isn’t possible but it isn’t proven properly just yet imo.

Time will tell…

As above, the Italian GR Cup cars have to run stock internals including valvetrain. They've only seen one failure so far and that was because the driver decided to ignore the big red STOP message on his dash. Matteo mapped his personal car and abused it for nearly 30k km before it finally spat a rod and he was not kind to that car, constantly using antilag, launch control and 1.9-2bar of boost. Ok that's still a failure but it took an impressive amount of time and abuse to dismantle itself given it was completely stock and he would run antilag for 50km track sessions and launched it way too many times.

The Syvecs is an incredible bit of kit if set up to protect the engine, like with the EGT probe. It also responds to issues faster than the stock ECU, i've seen a few cars fail from the oil starvation issue and it even happened to me but, while a stock ECU may not react in time, the Syvecs went into limp mode as soon as oil pressure dropped even though it was momentary. Had I been on a stock ECU I may have lost the engine, instead I just got embarrassed in front of my peers haha. Slight overfill of oil fixed the issue until I get a baffled sump.

Definitely agree that a lot of these failures may be down to tuners rather than hardware issues though. Everyone wants to be the one to make the most bhp out of whatever setup so they crank the boost up from 2.5krpm all the way to redline and time the shit out of them. There's been a lot of failures, I don't know how common knowledge they are as they tend to be swept under the carpet. Makes me wince a bit when I see some of these dyno figures though...

 

[MRA3]

I can only speak for Syvecs but PNP solutions tend to just use what's on the car already, plus a wideband lambda. You're absolutely right that with no EGT monitoring stuff could be getting way too hot especially with ALS, i've seen a few people who have it abuse it without much care. The Syvecs is basically an S8 in drag that you can add inputs to so i've installed an EGT probe in the downpipe which isn't the perfect solution being after the turbo but better than nothing, it's a simple job and enabling the input and setting up the limits on the ECU doesn't take long so I don't understand why companies charging £5k+ to supply and fit the ECU aren't doing this for peace of mind

Acme set mine up and they map the GR Cup rally cars in Italy for Toyota that also use Syvecs so if he's happy i'm happy, he's probably one of the most informed GR+Syvecs guys out there.



As above, the Italian GR Cup cars have to run stock internals including valvetrain. They've only seen one failure so far and that was because the driver decided to ignore the big red STOP message on his dash. Matteo mapped his personal car and abused it for nearly 30k km before it finally spat a rod and he was not kind to that car, constantly using antilag, launch control and 1.9-2bar of boost. Ok that's still a failure but it took an impressive amount of time and abuse to dismantle itself given it was completely stock and he would run antilag for 50km track sessions and launched it way too many times.

The Syvecs is an incredible bit of kit if set up to protect the engine, like with the EGT probe. It also responds to issues faster than the stock ECU, i've seen a few cars fail from the oil starvation issue and it even happened to me but, while a stock ECU may not react in time, the Syvecs went into limp mode as soon as oil pressure dropped even though it was momentary. Had I been on a stock ECU I may have lost the engine, instead I just got embarrassed in front of my peers haha. Slight overfill of oil fixed the issue until I get a baffled sump.

Definitely agree that a lot of these failures may be down to tuners rather than hardware issues though. Everyone wants to be the one to make the most bhp out of whatever setup so they crank the boost up from 2.5krpm all the way to redline and time the shit out of them. There's been a lot of failures, I don't know how common knowledge they are as they tend to be swept under the carpet. Makes me wince a bit when I see some of these dyno figures though...

I agree with you that on a plug in ecu, things are different because the tuner can have control over everything. The quoted post referred to myy previous one where I was talking to standard ECU maps where not all tables have been understood, and hence the risks involves.

Thanks for the EGT comments, if I plug the trigger on Syvecs, I‘ll ask to get that sorted. Makes sense.

 

[Onehp]

Thanks for your very usefull comments @p3.auto, it's these kind of dicussion/info that I created this thread for.

 

[p3.auto]

Any time, haven’t checked in here in a while and I’ve learned a lot, things move fast

 

[p3.auto]

I agree with you that on a plug in ecu, things are different because the tuner can have control over everything. The quoted post referred to myy previous one where I was talking to standard ECU maps where not all tables have been understood, and hence the risks involves.

Thanks for the EGT comments, if I plug the trigger on Syvecs, I‘ll ask to get that sorted. Makes sense.

No problem. All you need is a K type thermocouple in the downpipe and there’s dedicated pins in the expansion plug on the bottom of the ECU. Your tuner should be able to enable it and set up safety stuff easily enough. Worth the extra £50