GR86 Is this really the end of an era?

Gal14

Gal14

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Now don't get me wrong, I'm as excited for the delivery of the GR86 as the next zoo'er. However I do wonder how much of the rhetoric (both among us, and reviewers) that this is the end of the 'lightweight, fun sports car' is likely to pan out?

I know it seems like the idea of a nimble, lightweight sports car is destined for the big garage in the sky with the weight of current battery technology meaning saloons the size of a 3 series tip the scales at 2 tonnes.. but technology moves quickly and with the power density of battery cells constantly improving and the immutable fact that lighter = better range per KW surely it's only a matter of time until weight savings become the focus to improve the experience for all car buyers.

Once that process begins, it won't be long until sharing parts & production processes makes a small 2+2 EV coupé a feasible proposition for manufacturers. It's hard to imagine a world where there isn't a desire for such a thing, petrol powered or not.. after all electric go-karts are still a lot of fun, right?
 
I think it is, we've already seen V12s downgraded to turbo V8s in supercars, and the current crop of EVs are 🤬 as drivers cars and weigh a monstrous amount.

My company does some batteries work and we are a way off decent, light batteries. Plus no charging infrastructure.

Hybrids are mostly rubbish either suffering from poor mpg, utter boredom, complexity or not for drivers.


With probably fair and reasonable emissions targets cars are being driven away from GR86 type and they have to go one of the above routes, problem is they are all still a bit pants.

So I reckon it is last or close to last of breed.
 
Your point about the supercars being downgraded from V12's is a good example of what I mean. I understand that the sound of an NA V12 is a great and undeniably part of the experience, but is it all of it? Are those cars with Turbo v8's now really not worth driving?

It seems inevitable to me that we'll eventually (although I'm sure it will take a long time) get to a point where a battery powered drivetrain is of comparable weight to our current petrol powered options.

Considering that it seems like little of what makes the GR86 experience great is the engine, why couldn't we see fun electric roadsters when that happens?
 
Not exact the same vehicle type, but the carbon fibred BIW of the BMW i3(s) was/is far ahead of its time and as a result the car is barely heavier then ICE equivalents, and this is with 'old' battery tech. Could quite easily be adapted to a GR86 type vehicle without increasing weight much. At some point some proper BEV drivers cars will come for sure, and when that happens I'll probably be happy to leave the ICE behind...
 
100% it is. Unfortunately, most manufacturers have gone all in on EV and it's only Toyota who are raging against the dying of the light. But it will get them too, unless synthetic fuels get allowed which Porsche are pushing for. What annoys me most of all is we all can see that lightweight is the way to go but because EV are so efficient compared to a ICE equivalent, they've got lazy and haven't worked on getting them lighter, which if they did would solve so many issues.

Carbon fibre tubs is one obvious way to go but there's a carbon footprint with making those too and they take time. Although Mclaren have one of the fastest processes for making tubs. It was less than 4hrs for an MP4-12c so will be even less now. Tech like this is what will help.
 
Once manufacturers have written off all their legacy investments in ICE technology and are “fully committed “ to BEV and / or Hydrogen fuel cell technology (don’t write that one off) then things will take off at a pace , remember when Apple launched the iPhone ? I remember my first LapTop at work , weighed a tonne and very slow , and doing “email training”, things change very quickly once a clear path is established, certainly in Europe. Just look at the range of BEV concepts that Toyota showed a while back, lots of variety and not all SUVs. Those who like ICEs will still be able to enjoy them , just the same way as folk do with canal boats , traction engines , steam trains etc , but they are all things from history. I’m sure there will parts of the world where the ICE will live on as mainstream powetrain for many decades, unfortunately/fortunately depending on your point of view not in Europe.

Several cars here I’d be wanting a demo in if they were available today 👍

mag.toyota.co.uk

Akio Toyoda unveils full global EV line-up

30 electric models planned for 2030.
mag.toyota.co.uk mag.toyota.co.uk
 
I'm more concerned about the legislation and the controlling nature that may come such as compulsory speed limiters, cameras checking your every move, black boxes, etc. If people are still prepared to buy sportscars then they will be made, whether it is lightweight / lower range EV's, hydrogen fuelcell or combustion engine like the gr yaris prototype, or synthetic fuels. I think some of this will take off and some of it won't, but I don't believe it will be a 100% EV future, I think it will be a combination of a few of the above or something that hasn't even been invented yet? And for me, I could definitely see something like an EV MX5 or that Toyota MR2 concept car in my future and interested what some clever Engineers and Designers at places like Caterham, Ariel, etc. will come up with as they look to continue into the future. 🤞
 
There are many EV sports cars in concept. The new polestar roadster, the lotus one, Honda had a roadster concept along the e and so on.

But sports cars are a niche for some weird people like us. This means developing a car for this market is extremely unefficient. So they jumped on the SUV market first. Many sales and weight does not matter that much. It makes sense to use the markets to optimizers production and development before taking on so un economical projects as sports cars.
 
How many lightweight fun sports cars are there NOW? Very few. They are niche, and car makers are lazy and gorging themselves on the high profit margins of crossover/SUVs, why chase small profits in a small market? If there are any small 2+2 coupes in EV format in the future they will be niche and expensive, think Cayman or Alpine or Tesla (remember the roadster?) and they may involve carbon fibre just to ramp the price even further. So yes there may be some small sporty EV cars but they won't be cheap. And they will sound rubbish.

As a side note did anyone see the Ken Block Electrikhana video? Impressive performance and the like but the soundtrack was like a visit to the dentist :poop::sick:
 
In the short-medium term there will still be sports cars, but long term it will move the same way as lots of other expensive 'tech' is doing.

Private ownership will become rarer and rarer, and it would be an IaaS model. You need a car, you jump in one and pay per mile. (These already exist, they will just become the norm) In that model I'd expect the vehicles to be a utility offer, so driving experience basically a non-consideration.

Where that leaves sports cars at that point will be down to how many of the 'rich' still want one, but I'd expect it to become more and more a thing only the top few % can afford to own and store privately.
 
OPC100 said:
I'm more concerned about the legislation and the controlling nature that may come such as compulsory speed limiters, cameras checking your every move, black boxes, etc.
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This is it for me. Once all this new tech is mandatory and cars are driving themselves it won't matter what the drive train is anymore.

Agree on the private ownership model comment above too. My kids have a good decade before they could learn to drive, Im not sure they'll even bother.
 
doogle83 said:
This is it for me. Once all this new tech is mandatory and cars are driving themselves it won't matter what the drive train is anymore.

Agree on the private ownership model comment above too. My kids have a good decade before they could learn to drive, Im not sure they'll even bother.
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I don't want a car to drive for me until I'm incapable of driving anymore. 😩

It is interesting to see how car sharing, driverless pods, etc will work, but not for me. I can see it working in cities, but what about in the countryside. We live in a small village and I still see some form of personal transport being required, as public transport is a joke. Maybe all my children will just grow up and move to larger towns / cities anyway and it will just be old folk left struggling in the countryside. 🙄
 
mjscall said:
Were that leaves sports cars at that point will be down to how many of the 'rich' still want one, but I'd expect it to become more and more a thing only the top few % can afford to own and store privately.
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Jay Leno made a point a couple of years ago in an interview - that he thought petrol cars would go the way of horses, in that people would own and use them for pleasure rather than out of necessity.
 
Silver Fox said:
Jay Leno made a point a couple of years ago in an interview - that he thought petrol cars would go the way of horses, in that people would own and use them for pleasure rather than out of necessity.
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I just hope we're allowed to. It seems the climate nutters get all the press and vilify us at every turn these days.
 
Silver Fox said:
Jay Leno made a point a couple of years ago in an interview - that he thought petrol cars would go the way of horses, in that people would own and use them for pleasure rather than out of necessity.
Click to expand...
I fear it’ll be the well heeled who own cars down the line, the average horse owner must have a seven figure net worth now.. or their parents do based on my interactions with the girls doing equine studies when I studied in Warwickshire.
 
Read the other day that MG are going to announce the Cyberster EV roadster next year, an MX5-ish style EV so they could be first to market with an (affordable?) electric sportscar of sorts (ignoring the Tesla roadster and hypercars like the Rimac etc) No idea on price yet. One to watch maybe.
 
I think lack of interest in such a thing means this is an end of an era more than anything else. Buyers have shifted there interests and manufacturers are just moving with the times
 
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