GR Yaris Caster through anti-lift kits

[Phil1291]

My two cents:
If you don‘t have a hardcore racecar or practically only track your GR, you won‘t need or feel anti lift or additional caster.
And if you do, you don‘t buy these parts from Powerflex…
Than you go with something like Verkline.

If you want to spend the money and do it, go for it, why not.
But i‘d do a 100 other things before i‘d put one of these on my car.
Doesn‘t matter if it‘s a track, a street car or something in between.

 

[Onehp]

I'm sure there is a difference, but I'm also pretty sure that by the third drive or so I will have forgotten it's there - hence I haven't done it. Driving done properly can adapt to quite a lot.

My reasoning is this part was upgraded in making it a GR so can't be that bad. Only part I'm considering are the rear trailing arm bushings, these sidestep the GR direct mounted rear subframe and retain the big and soft OEM part bin connection.

 

[Michael Knight]

My two cents:
If you don‘t have a hardcore racecar or practically only track your GR, you won‘t need or feel anti lift or additional caster.
And if you do, you don‘t buy these parts from Powerflex…
Than you go with something like Verkline.

If you want to spend the money and do it, go for it, why not.
But i‘d do a 100 other things before i‘d put one of these on my car.
Doesn‘t matter if it‘s a track, a street car or something in between.

In terms of improving cars front axle grip and understeer, can you please list first 10 of your hundred.
Verkline stuff is full blown race stuff.

Outside snap off oversteer i feel rear grip is generally better than front.

Could be fun to test 10mm oversized tires on front but kind of messes the tire circulation

 

[Phil1291]

Can you please list first 10 of your hundred.
Verkline stuff is full blown race stuff.

seems to be a touchy topic

Here you go.

 

[Michael Knight]

Is this a click bait? You say in video its not a track day spesific.
btw - have that stuff already and don't relate to this topic that is spesific to front axle geometry, grip and feel.

 

[MarkoS]

The good news is I received a response from Powerflex. Their caster kit will give 5mm anti-lift as the offset at the top of the arm is 30.5mm vs 25.5mm on the original bush.

The bad news is I don't understand any of this . So, I still wonder:

• Does it really offer meaningful anti-lift?
• Cost aside, which would be better, for anti-lift and overall, the Powerflex or the Whiteline kit?
• Why, ie on what basis is any of the two better? Any pros & cons?

Can any knowledgable forumits advise, please? Especially those in the trade @HRNSHN-Racing , @Phil1291, @DrSetup ?

Thank you!

Can try to measure Whiteline shim thickness, my guess is the thickness determines anti lift %, so can compare with Powerflex 5mm.

 

[Spirited]

Can try to measure Whiteline shim thickness, my guess is the thickness determines anti lift %, so can compare with Powerflex 5mm.

Thanks for offering, that might be a great idea but I won't pretend I can confirm that your guess is right.

I might have to research and educate myself on how such anti-lift kits work, what (and what benefit) a 5mm anti-lift really means, etc.

And then I'll probably need to look into @Onehp 's hint about rear trailing arm bushings. It never ends...

 

[Michael Knight]

my take is that front end its not the best when on limit. power steering fails, and front end grip too. but first world problems really.

 

[Spirited]

I'm sure there is a difference, but I'm also pretty sure that by the third drive or so I will have forgotten it's there - hence I haven't done it. Driving done properly can adapt to quite a lot. ...

I think I get your logic but it leads me to a different conclusion.

Changes that I soon don't spot as something out of the ordinary are top of my priority list. If they fit in so naturally to my use of the car, then they were much needed.

For example, the steering wheel extender was initially a pleasant shock to the system. Almost immediately after, I forgot about it, while, before installing, I would often feel that the steering wheel is too far away from me. All this means to me that how I wanted the car was with this aftermarket part.

 

[Spirited]

my take is that front end its not the best when on limit. power steering fails, and front end grip too. but first world problems really.

For balance, here is my take on your take

For most, that limit is not easy to reach, though. Far harder to hit the limit on the road in the GRY than in most other cars.

Regarding front grip failing, I've felt that, but I've since made great improvements through geo settings. A relatively cheap fix that allows me to set up the car to my preferred characteristics.

The difference this made was demonstrated at a recent drive with other GRYs, when owners rushed to me at the first regrouping to ask what I had done to the car. I bet they were expecting to hear about tuning boxes and remaps, but it's just geo. Another said that having me in front of him with the same car, he thought that just by keeping his eyes on my car, lines, brake lights, etc would give him an advantage to read the road and how to drive it at least as fast as I was. But he just couldn't keep up, he said. Oh, and I'm not a trained/racing driver nor was I overdoing it. As for me, I felt I didn't know what they were talking about. It all felt so natural and easy to me that, in a way similar to @Onehp 's post, I had forgetten about the mod and the positive change it has brought, allowing me to experience intensity that was not accessible in stock car form.

As for the power steering failing, could it be that you're exaggerating a bit? I've never felt it failing and I've only heard about it potentially momentarily not working properly in extreme situations on the track, with cars that had been significantly modified, ie wide semi slicks with so much caster that it cannot be achieved through caster kits.

We like first world problems. They offer a sense of wellbeing when life throws **** at you

 

[Phil1291]

Is this a click bait? You say in video its not a track day spesific.
btw - have that stuff already and don't relate to this topic that is spesific to front axle geometry, grip and feel.

Clickbait. Yeah sure.
I‘m sorry that i suggested things you already have. My bad.

 

[Phil1291]

Is this a click bait? You say in video its not a track day spesific.
btw - have that stuff already and don't relate to this topic that is spesific to front axle geometry, grip and feel.

Sorry you feel that way.

 

[MarkoS]

Thanks for offering, that might be a great idea but I won't pretend I can confirm that your guess is right.

I might have to research and educate myself on how such anti-lift kits work, what (and what benefit) a 5mm anti-lift really means, etc.

And then I'll probably need to look into @Onehp 's hint about rear trailing arm bushings. It never ends...

 

[Michael Knight]

Sorry you feel that way.

no hard feelings, just not addressing the question.

 

[azet]

what a nice thread this is
my bottom line is that by upgrading the rear bushing in the stock control arm you hit several flies at once (this is why I went for the whiteline kit):
1. yes, the stock bushing is a "GR" part, full rubber, but still quite soft. fitting a stiffer one makes sense, even mainly for street use
2. tweaking slightly the caster it gives you more dynamic negative camber + a better response from the steering, which is noticable to me. in a positive way.
3. the whiteline kit allows to experiment with altering the anti-lift or anti-dive horizontal setting of the control arm.
4. it is very cheap and durable - it is a full PU puck. compared to the nylon uniball solution from PF I think this will outlast it in the longrun.

it is a small upgrade, similar to camber bolts, but hard to beat bang for buck. sure, the verkline control arm can do all of the above and better, but for 10x €.

 

[Michael Knight]

good explanation also from another forum.

From what I understand reading Whiteline's white paper on their ALK is that it actually decreases anti lift and anti dive effect when the spacer is placed on top to lower the rear arm bushing. The intend for it to be on the top, to lower the pivot point of the rear bushing. The reason they do this is the reduction to the anti's results in the suspension binding less (created a softening effect) when torque is applied to the knuckle (by the axle or brakes) to improve traction under braking and acceleration (and also as a side effect it improves ride comfort) and to help promote more even loading side to side on the front tire during turn-in and corner exit to reduce understeer. The stock anti-lift and anti-dive angles are designed to cause the suspension to stiffen via torque binding to help reduce body motions to improve driver confidence. The stock anti angles help create that "flat" or "on rails" feeling that people enjoy but that isn't always a sign of ideal suspension.

With the increased castor angle these bushings also provide it improves the camber curve so that with the increased suspension movement you're also achieving a net improvement to camber but without the negative effect the straight line traction that drastic static camber changes cause. They suggest that you can also use shock or spring adjustments to stiffen the suspension back up to counter the changes caused by the anti lift kit if the increase in body motion is too much. With our car's adjustable shocks that's a button push away.

Putting the spacer on the bottom to increase anti-lift and anti-dive would cause the suspension to feel stiffer and the car to feel more "tight" but is actually decreasing your traction under braking and acceleration. Maybe not an issue if the surface is very smooth and flat or if you're on slicks and it's loading the suspension a lot more than usual.

 

[Michael Knight]

Friend had a press so will test the whiteline bushing.

 

[HRNSHN-Racing]

the main idea of increased caster is usually that you can run less static camber which is good for driving on straights as the camber angle improves when turning. also the higher the caster the higher the "turning back force" of the steering whel to the middle position is. Also the higher the caster is the more is the problem of the stuck steering wheel force when braking turning and compression hits the car. Long story short, i never sold one of these kits and do not recommend these

 

[azet]

the main idea of increased caster is usually that you can run less static camber which is good for driving on straights as the camber angle improves when turning. also the higher the caster the higher the "turning back force" of the steering whel to the middle position is. Also the higher the caster is the more is the problem of the stuck steering wheel force when braking turning and compression hits the car. Long story short, i never sold one of these kits and do not recommend these

you have both, the PF bushes and the verkline control arms listed in your shop.
so even when selling the billet alu CA you instruct your customer to not touch the caster & antil-lift/anti dive settings and stick to toyotas recommended stock numbers and only using the benefits of like added stiffness and lightness?

 

[Onehp]

From my perspective, yes the added caster improves the camber when turning in, but by how much at relevant steering angles? Quite marginal. I've done this stuff in the past and while I could notice it, it's all in the margin of things. Nothing 0,03s longer trailbraking in a curve doesn't solve.

Don't get me wrong, I would do the whiteline if I had the time and if I am in a tinkering mood and I wasn't already slightly annoyed at the cars NVH at times. But I am none of those. What I need are more quality drives but that's me, maybe others are in a actual situation where they feel the cars are limiting them in their driving...
In extension this can be applied to a lot of mods, I guess I am in the fase where I stop the avalanche of ever going improvements as just calling it 'good enough'.