GR Yaris Geo fast road help and track set up

peeler

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I will be using my car for fast road with a few local hillclimbs and the odd trackday

What’s a good geo set up to cover all 3 and also things to improve the handling

Thanks
 

GRWTF

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I will be using my car for fast road with a few local hillclimbs and the odd trackday

What’s a good geo set up to cover all 3 and also things to improve the handling

Thanks
-3 degree camber in the front, -2 back.
1mm toe out in the rear on each side.
Keep toe as close to neutral as possible on the front favouring a slight outward toe tolerance.

Note that geo setups are subjective to varying degrees. Some people like more, some less. Also depends on the rest of your setup.
 

GRWTF

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Also note that this kind of geo can make the car very lively in evasive action on road tyres, so at motorway speeds I'd recommend to keep esp/tc ON, no driver is as good as an ESP than can brake individual wheels.
THIS.
 
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Michael Knight

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Also note that this kind of geo can make the car very lively in evasive action on road tyres, so at motorway speeds I'd recommend to keep esp/tc ON, no driver is as good as an ESP than can brake individual wheels.
I cannot see that driving with a setup that requires ESP action is really good recommendation for any driving. Car should be good to drive with all aids off.
 
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GRgrampa

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Personally, I would be very cautious about having toe out on the rear. Although this can make make life quite entertaining at slower speeds, it can be positively frightening in high speed corners.
 
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DeanoC

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Personally, I would be very cautious about having toe out on the rear. Although this can make make life quite entertaining at slower speeds, it can be positively frightening in high speed corners.

I did one track day with slight toe out while I was experimenting and must say I agree. Slow speed stuff was quite playful and predictable but high speed was bad. I had 2 major offs at 100mph +. I found the combo of that alignment and the sudden decoupling of the rear of you come off power was a bit lairy.
 

GRgrampa

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I did one track day with slight toe out while I was experimenting and must say I agree. Slow speed stuff was quite playful and predictable but high speed was bad. I had 2 major offs at 100mph +. I found the combo of that alignment and the sudden decoupling of the rear of you come off power was a bit lairy.
Yes a small amount of toe in on the rear is the safer and faster option imo.
 
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Onehp

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Toe out rear is perhaps more for tight courses and/or hillclimbs where more weight rear may reduce willingness to turn.

Also, at highway speed and on the highway speeds, I always recommend ESP is kept ON either way. For the aforementioned reason that no driver is better than the system at stabilising the car, but also that even the best driver may not be on their very top driving during 'boring' motorway drives, untill someone messes up big in front of you, or a lost soul comes right at you in the wrong direction, or a lost tyre, or a sofa, blowout etc... It doesn't happen often but it does happen...
 
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peeler

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-3 degree camber in the front, -2 back.
1mm toe out in the rear on each side.
Keep toe as close to neutral as possible on the front favouring a slight outward toe tolerance.

Note that geo setups are subjective to varying degrees. Some people like more, some less. Also depends on the rest of your setup.
Thanks, I’m just after a good nuteral set up, I’ve done some sprinting and TA and always just had the garage set the car up with their settings, I definitely don’t want the car stepping out at 100mph plus on tight roads 🤣🤣
 

Phil1291

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I did one track day with slight toe out while I was experimenting and must say I agree. Slow speed stuff was quite playful and predictable but high speed was bad. I had 2 major offs at 100mph +. I found the combo of that alignment and the sudden decoupling of the rear of you come off power was a bit lairy.
That‘s interesting.
I‘ve driven with 230kph over the german Autobahn, on racetracks and tight mountain roads with 1.0mm toe out each wheel and the car felt perfectly fine.
With 235/40, 255/35 semi slicks and with 225/40, 265/35 street tires.

Do you still have the OEM suspension?
 

Onehp

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That‘s interesting.
I‘ve driven with 230kph over the german Autobahn, on racetracks and tight mountain roads with 1.0mm toe out each wheel and the car felt perfectly fine.
Toe out is just as stable going straight, but have you tried a quick left-right-left obstacle evasion?
 

Phil1291

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Toe out is just as stable going straight, but have you tried a quick left-right-left obstacle evasion?
No. Because i‘m not suicidal. 😅
With 200kph+, i don‘t make the left-right-left obstacle evasion just to test how the car drives.
And i hope i‘ll never have to do it for real at that speed.

The racetracks i‘m on have quite fast and sharp turns.
The german Autobahn i know is mostly not so smooth and it does have turns.
And our mountain roads are everything, but not straight.
 
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Onehp

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And i hope i‘ll never have to do it for real at that speed.
And that is my point, we hope and thus don't set up our cars for such, but it can happen.
OEM have evasive behaviour in their test program and tend to choose more conservative geo for this reason.

We all have our experience, I went out for a proper hoon on winter tyres and slippery circumstances with 3 deg neg in front and stock geo rear. It was hilarious, rear end was so easy to play with, drifting cloverleaf just on the throttle, testing left right left at motorways speeds and get the rear end moving first... Yes I could manage it because the situational surrounding was under control, but I also know I won't always be and then this geo became a lot less tempting... Now there are differences on tyres too, I'm pretty sure that it will be more docile on higher grip tyres, but still, I went for less aggresive 2,3 neg front while proposed here is 3 AND toe out. I suspect there will be fairly specific safety related but entirely possible handling situations where this could be a *bit*much to handle...
 
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DeanoC

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That‘s interesting.
I‘ve driven with 230kph over the german Autobahn, on racetracks and tight mountain roads with 1.0mm toe out each wheel and the car felt perfectly fine.
With 235/40, 255/35 semi slicks and with 225/40, 265/35 street tires.

Do you still have the OEM suspension?

Yes. That is half of the problem I suspect.
 
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DeanoC

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Getting my alignment done this week and from feedback from other owners am going with -3 degree front camber, circa -1.5 rear, 1mm toe out front, 1mm toe in rear. Should liven up the steering feel and be a good fast road/ occasional track day setup. Will report back.

That's ideal. Your rear will be closer to -2.
 
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Onehp

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Getting my alignment done this week and from feedback from other owners am going with -3 degree front camber, circa -1.5 rear, 1mm toe out front, 1mm toe in rear. Should liven up the steering feel and be a good fast road/ occasional track day setup. Will report back.
1,5 difference in neg camber front and rear is actually quite a lot. It's the difference front to rear that dictates the limit behaviour, ie if the front or rear let's go first, and I would think of greater influence than 1mm toe in or out rear. I would suggest to go for 2 neg in the rear if you have the choice (rear camber bolts).

I also want to remind of a discussion on the other place of a guy that lost control of his GRY over a crest and totalled it. Luckily no uncoming traffic or bystanders or he could have easily been guilty of killing innocent road users.
He had done geo changes and I speculate that it could have contributed to losing it over the crest making a correction, the geo contributed with on the limit unbalance. This was never confirmed afaik (quite hard) but I do know for sure such a scenario is heavily influenced by geo in a similar way as evasive action. Geo is very much a matter of balance - literally and between properties, and I personally am always cautious to making big changes without considering the impact on all handling aspects. ISO 3888-2 being one of them, but also, or perhaps especially, even higher speed considerations.

Take care all
 
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Phil1291

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And that is my point, we hope and thus don't set up our cars for such, but it can happen.
OEM have evasive behaviour in their test program and tend to choose more conservative geo for this reason.

We all have our experience, I went out for a proper hoon on winter tyres and slippery circumstances with 3 deg neg in front and stock geo rear. It was hilarious, rear end was so easy to play with, drifting cloverleaf just on the throttle, testing left right left at motorways speeds and get the rear end moving first... Yes I could manage it because the situational surrounding was under control, but I also know I won't always be and then this geo became a lot less tempting... Now there are differences on tyres too, I'm pretty sure that it will be more docile on higher grip tyres, but still, I went for less aggresive 2,3 neg front while proposed here is 3 AND toe out. I suspect there will be fairly specific safety related but entirely possible handling situations where this could be a *bit*much to handle...
Na. That has nothing to do with the alignment.
I hope i never have to do that, with any car under any circumstances, no matter the alignment.

Having said that, the major problem is stock suspension and stock height.
You have a lot of dynamic camber gain and toe out over suspension travel.
That‘s why, on stock height, if the suspension compresses, you‘ll get a lot more camber and toe out than you had when you set the car up static.
And that‘s also why some of you had quite the interesting experiences.

If your car is lowered and, even better, has a better suspension than stock, you‘re dynamic camber and toe is much more stable and much closer to static than on OEM height and suspension.

And that‘s why the Öhlins and all the other suspensions are worth their money, especially on a racetrack.
You can set up the alignment much more aggressive and still have a very „calm“ car that doesn‘t want to kill you.
 
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Onehp

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@Phil1291 of course a good aftermarket suspension changes the whole picture completely. There is almost no point in comparing notes with stock suspension.

In all the above, I have assumed stock suspension as there was no mention of aftermarket suspension and the quesion would probably be asked quite differently if it was aftermarket?

Again a reminder that it is very important to state all modifications when discussing matters of set-up. Also road vs track vs winter tyres can make a difference in behaviour and even tyre model and pressures can change behaviour...
 
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